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Paint Shades - Dunkelgelb & Olive Drab
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 04:16 AM UTC
Biggles2
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 05:28 AM UTC
Very useful info for painting and weathering models, but are you suggesting that the marked difference in color is due solely to fading?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 - 06:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Very useful info for painting and weathering models, but are you suggesting that the marked difference in color is due solely to fading?
Who?
Me?
I only provided a link to a pdf of an article written by S Zaloga many years ago.
It puts all my Humbrol 155 painted models to shame
I have only been fading since 1964 so the little I know about paints in WW II is what I have read. I wasn't there. Wartime pictures look a lot darker than my Humbrol 155 so I am reasonably certain that my models are off the mark.
Cheers / Robin
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 05:22 PM UTC
Just wanted to toss this in:
Came across this photo while doing some other research; This (at the time) was my BC-654 WWII radio and this is my photo.
Notice how the paint of the receiver (upper) unit is more brown toned while the face plate on the the transmitter (lower) is more green in shade.
This is an original WWII radio manufactured by Crosley in Cincinnati and these control panels have spent their entire life under a protective and gasketed metal cover plate.
This would be, I think, about as close as we can get to original, unaltered US military wartime paint and clearly there are inconsistencies in paint shade even within the same manufacturing facility.
(And here I thought US paint would be more consistent!)
Then of course, the battery door, code key and enclosure inner surface seem to perhaps be yet other shades of OD.
Came across this photo while doing some other research; This (at the time) was my BC-654 WWII radio and this is my photo.
Notice how the paint of the receiver (upper) unit is more brown toned while the face plate on the the transmitter (lower) is more green in shade.
This is an original WWII radio manufactured by Crosley in Cincinnati and these control panels have spent their entire life under a protective and gasketed metal cover plate.
This would be, I think, about as close as we can get to original, unaltered US military wartime paint and clearly there are inconsistencies in paint shade even within the same manufacturing facility.
(And here I thought US paint would be more consistent!)
Then of course, the battery door, code key and enclosure inner surface seem to perhaps be yet other shades of OD.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 05:42 AM UTC
What type of paint is it? From looking at the photo I get the impression of owen hardened pulver laquer.
Maybe this was more difficult to get a consistent tone/shade from than the ordinary paint used on vehicles and guns?
/ Robin
Maybe this was more difficult to get a consistent tone/shade from than the ordinary paint used on vehicles and guns?
/ Robin
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 07:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Very useful info for painting and weathering models, but are you suggesting that the marked difference in color is due solely to fading?
Fading and linseed oil. Supposedly the ingredients were changed due to lack of access to linseed oil so olive drab became greener in 1943.
That is according to a chemist and someone in procurement way back when. I don't know for certain. I use Humbrol 155 too.
1942 Olive drab, especially that of the USAAF was very brown. However, some color pictures of aircraft match old Humbrol 155 quite well. Tanks, not so well.
Add a touch of ocher, the same way you did with the old Tamiya OD.
And fading and weathering can leave a whole line of tanks painted the same color looking different shades.
d111298pw
#456
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Posted: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 06:10 PM UTC
Somehow, this thread went from German WWII paint shades to a completely unrelated discussion of US OD paint shades. Maybe someone can move most of this discussion to it's own thread. After all, someone searching for information on OD shades will skip this thread because of the title.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 08:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Somehow, this thread went from German WWII paint shades to a completely unrelated discussion of US OD paint shades. Maybe someone can move most of this discussion to it's own thread. After all, someone searching for information on OD shades will skip this thread because of the title.
It's all related. You see if there are all these problems in trying to peg down the color of US olive drab than trying to get German colors just may not be worth the effort.
The US paint industry wasn't subject to bombing or a crazy industrial plan and one shortage is said to have drastically changed the color. So with numerous supply problems and bombing, German colors were a very, very mixed bag. They probably varied all over the place and diluted application would further complicate matters to the point where precise matching of shades would be a futile and even foolish endeavor.
Many of the fellows over on the aircraft side have pretty much given up on precise colors going for ballpark matches. And then IJN grey has undergone a major change after 70 years becoming much greener.
Shades? Dark yellow or dark grey. A green that's not too blue or yellow and a brown that's reddish, but not a red; because that's the primer color.
Precise match? Sure you'll match one part of one vehicle at one point in time and the whole rest of the motor pool will be different.
Next question.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 09:57 PM UTC
I modified the title of this thread to try and get a better match to the current shade of the discussion 
cheyenne
Joined: January 05, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 11:04 PM UTC
Film type , is this a colorized photo ? , copy quality ?
This is why WW2 color photos as a reference as to " color " can't be used as an answer . Taken in consideration of different batch colors when first painted from different factories etc . to using old photos as reference , well for my money we're all just spitballin with horse shoes and hand grenades , close enough is close enough . I just don't see how there can be one definitive answer .
This is why WW2 color photos as a reference as to " color " can't be used as an answer . Taken in consideration of different batch colors when first painted from different factories etc . to using old photos as reference , well for my money we're all just spitballin with horse shoes and hand grenades , close enough is close enough . I just don't see how there can be one definitive answer .
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 12:54 AM UTC
"the shade of the discussion", very cute!
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 01:02 AM UTC
As to ever trusting period color photos yes, practically no help at all.
The reason I thought the photo of the radio was interesting. #1 it is my photo (maybe 3 years old), #2 the image has no fade because it has only been seen electronically and #3 the subject itself has been covered up in a sealed container for the majority of its life.
There is the possibility that one unit (transmitter or receiver) was prepaired or replaced at some time. This could have happened before/after the issue of the Lin seed oil shortage that the other gentlemen mentioned.
I can attest that the color reproduction in this photo is accruate in that I have been a professional photographer and darkroom tech for 35+ years and I took the photo.
The only part in the life of this photo that I don't have control of is how your monitor reproduces the colors. Regardless there should still be a very appearent difference in color shade between the top and bottom portions of the radio front panel. (Top more brown, bottom more green.)
The reason I thought the photo of the radio was interesting. #1 it is my photo (maybe 3 years old), #2 the image has no fade because it has only been seen electronically and #3 the subject itself has been covered up in a sealed container for the majority of its life.
There is the possibility that one unit (transmitter or receiver) was prepaired or replaced at some time. This could have happened before/after the issue of the Lin seed oil shortage that the other gentlemen mentioned.
I can attest that the color reproduction in this photo is accruate in that I have been a professional photographer and darkroom tech for 35+ years and I took the photo.
The only part in the life of this photo that I don't have control of is how your monitor reproduces the colors. Regardless there should still be a very appearent difference in color shade between the top and bottom portions of the radio front panel. (Top more brown, bottom more green.)
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 01:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I can attest that the color reproduction in this photo is accruate in that I have been a professional photographer and darkroom tech for 35+ years and I took the photo.
The original photograph may have perfect color, but I can't speak for many of the screens used to view it.
Then there is also the color vision of some. Green, blue color perception differs among humans. This will also affect yellows due to the configuration of the human eye.
I've seen more than one modeler complaining about perfect color on a model and then talking about his poor results on his color perception in his eye exam.
Unless you routinely visit an optometrist most color perception differences go un diagnosed. And it changes over time especially with diabetes.
And I have superior color acuity. Distorted vision because of the severity of a retina detachment but color is far above average.
But human perception on the average is an iffy thing.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 01:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"the shade of the discussion", very cute!
I do my best ...
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 01:38 AM UTC
As I say; regardless of reproduction differences in monitors or perception differences on the part of the viewer the top part is a different shade from the lower part.
I will leave it up to others to conclude the why.
I will leave it up to others to conclude the why.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 01:39 AM UTC
Same digital image, taken by one single lens and processed by the same HW and SW in whatever camera was used and then digitally transmitted and shown on a single computer attached to one screen. I have two big screens sid-by-side so in theory I could tilt the image 90 degrees and get the upper/lower to be right/left and display the image across the boundary between the screens.
As it is displayed right now there is a distinct difference between the upper and lower units of that radio.
I would not try to match a paint mix in a jar held up next to the screen or to a printout.
/ Robin
As it is displayed right now there is a distinct difference between the upper and lower units of that radio.
I would not try to match a paint mix in a jar held up next to the screen or to a printout.
/ Robin
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 03:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As I say; regardless of reproduction differences in monitors or perception differences on the part of the viewer the top part is a different shade from the lower part.
I will leave it up to others to conclude the why.
Never said it wasn't. The values of the two hues are different.
joepanzer
Joined: January 21, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 01:26 PM UTC
I almost don't want to get involved, but the look of the various versions of the LST, I'd have to say that the photo was colorized and retouched from a B&W negative.
It's most evident that they've been retouched when you look at some of the guys on the boat, and the guy leaning against the rack to the lower left of the LST. The colors added tend to flatten out the contrast. Also evident in the different appearances over the LST doors.
I work in the printing industry and retouch photos.
Just my opinion.
It's most evident that they've been retouched when you look at some of the guys on the boat, and the guy leaning against the rack to the lower left of the LST. The colors added tend to flatten out the contrast. Also evident in the different appearances over the LST doors.
I work in the printing industry and retouch photos.
Just my opinion.
Mrclark7
Joined: June 04, 2017
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 - 12:35 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Maybe I’m suffering Dioramitis but doesn’t that Normandy scene look like a (very good) diorama?? It looks so staged, particularly the figures & the positions of the vehicles don’t quite make sense if they’ve just come out…& would the jeep’s windscreen be that dirty? Do you have any attribution/reference for this image?
Whatever even if it’s real, debates about WW2 colours are truly futile because there are way too many variables – manufacturer, age of vehicle at time of photograph, terrain it’s travelled through, photographic conditions at the time, type of colour negative & rate of decay over nearly 80 years. Plus the variability of viewers’ monitors, and variability in how we all actually perceive colours. There are no absolutes, just approximations
everything here, but also how about the simple fact that one coat versus two coats of paint applied can be huge depending on base coat, such as black or white!
JPTRR
Managing Editor
#051
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 - 01:31 PM UTC
This brings up a question that perhaps collective 'you' can. Tru-Colors catalogues several Dunkelgelbs. They told me that there was even a Dunkelgelb, IIRC, specifically for the Ostfront and Guderian would not allow it to be used elsewhere.
I don't recall all the specifics but that they work with the curator of a military museum in Holland who provides access to original Wehrmacht paint from parts of the AFVs protected from UV light.
Any insight?
I don't recall all the specifics but that they work with the curator of a military museum in Holland who provides access to original Wehrmacht paint from parts of the AFVs protected from UV light.
Any insight?
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 - 11:15 PM UTC
Your comments almost bring us full circle back to the original statements that started this thread.
The (now retired) Curator of the then Patton Museum at Ft. Knox; Charles Lemons, has written several short articles on the variations of paint shade of German sub-components seen in the restoration of the 251/9 (short barreled 75mm halftrack). This was noted when the interior floor panels were removed exposing parts not previously exposed to UV daylight.
The (now retired) Curator of the then Patton Museum at Ft. Knox; Charles Lemons, has written several short articles on the variations of paint shade of German sub-components seen in the restoration of the 251/9 (short barreled 75mm halftrack). This was noted when the interior floor panels were removed exposing parts not previously exposed to UV daylight.
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