This excerpt is lifted from another thread covering some possibly new Tamiya paints:


When it comes to "standard" German paint shades (primer or paint) I would suggest that there was actually not much of a "precise," exacting standard.


This statement will bring the flamers rushing to burn my at the stake but . . .


When we removed the floor plates out of an original Sd.Kfz. 251 at the Patton Museum for a complete restoration it was clear that the various myriad sub-contractors providing the components, (gas tanks, valves, pumps, etc.) while doing their best, where quite varied when it came to their mixing of the "standard" German paint colors.

The museum curator, Charles Lemons, has written several short pieces on this topic. Due to supply problems, variations in the consistency of raw materials due to the war effort and mixing errors, the shades of the "standard colors" varied quite a bit.

Add to that the variations caused by field expediencies where the camo paint pastes were sometimes thinned sometimes with water, sometimes gas or oil and you end up with extremely wide latitudes across the board as to actual German STANDARD paint shades.


That's my two cents worth on the subject . . . but these two pennies do come with a bit of direct experience attached.



Original 250 engine - note color shade variations of valve cover vs. engine block & manifold as well as the clutch housing vs. the clutch access cover plate. - my photo.

____________________________________________


Below; note color variations between brake cylinder and various frame components. Paint on brake cylinder definitely has more of a white element (less yellow) in the mix used by the sub-contractor providing this part. - my photo.


Almost all German vehicles were given a final overall exterior coat of paint before leaving the factory, in part to cover up these supply chain induced variations in paint color. But still, vehicles coming from different factories might suffer the same variations in the standard paint shade color when compared, side by side, one to the other.

Do we think the unit commanders cared about paint shades when marching into conflict?

I feel that as modelers we can take comfort in that the many shades of paint we might produce in our models only echoes the many and varied shades of paint that probably existed on the real thing.



. . . . now let the flaming begin!

Amen...now about Olive Drab...!

The only comment I can make regarding US vehicle colors of WWII is that they were much more consistent.

Most US standards and practices were developed before the Nation entered the war and the US military industrial complex was never under direct attack making standardization a much easier prospect.

Also, I believe, most all US military paint was produced by 2-3 large paint companies and distributed (shipped) to the various contractors and sub-contractors making more precise color standardization a much easier undertaking.

Hmmm...this must be the exception that proves the rule!

Not sure what you mean Bigs.

A DUKW is in the process of being loaded on the LST, another is ready to roll on. The Weapons Carrier is local transportation, probably belonging to the guy with the map case on his hip. (Maybe the Load Master.) As such that WC is absolutely covered in dust (probably a daily driver) so of course it looks different from the less used combat equipment.

Dust, or not, you can plainly see the Dodge is in what appears to be a shade of OD, and the DUKW is distinctly brownish. Both are in full sunlight. My point is, you claimed that US paint colors were much more consistent than German practises, yet here are two US vehicles with very different color.

This might be a coincidence, but talking about standards... German standards for colors came from the German Railroad body, the chart active as from 1934(there was no pressure from war yet) is the first RAL Farbton Register. Initially it had nothing to do with the German Heeresambt, but they thankfully made use of it. I just got this info from this very interesting discussion on ML https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/why-was-oxide-primer-specced-with-a-ral-colour-t321275.html#p1573494
If you want a copy of this original list, I have it digital.
And for the people out there, painting everything with 8012 RotBraun, it's a color, not a primer...

Meine zwei Pfennige

Robert Jan

Maybe I’m suffering Dioramitis but doesn’t that Normandy scene look like a (very good) diorama?? It looks so staged, particularly the figures & the positions of the vehicles don’t quite make sense if they’ve just come out…& would the jeep’s windscreen be that dirty? Do you have any attribution/reference for this image?

Whatever even if it’s real, debates about WW2 colours are truly futile because there are way too many variables – manufacturer, age of vehicle at time of photograph, terrain it’s travelled through, photographic conditions at the time, type of colour negative & rate of decay over nearly 80 years. Plus the variability of viewers’ monitors, and variability in how we all actually perceive colours. There are no absolutes, just approximations

Hello Tim - how's it going? Good I hope!

I agree on the diorama possibilities of that photo. In the good old days of the Patton Museum there was a full 1/35th scale model of an LST on display with Shermans rolling out the gangway and lighter wheeled equipment crowding the upper deck.

I have often thought of perhaps just building the forward 30' of the bow of an LST with the doors open and equipment being loaded into that darkly mysterious well.

________________________

My read on that great period photo is that we have a parked WC that is clearly being used as a daily driver. The WC appears to have seen a fair amount of use around the seaport ** - So it has use, it has possible fade (ocean air and sunlight) and it certainly has beaucoup dust. Where as the DUKW's have yet to see any use and have essentially been either in shipping or open storage with tarps since leaving the factory possibly only 4-5 months prior.

Beyond that I have to say Bigs I agree with you; they clearly look different! **

Please know that I am no expert on the subject and don't claim to be. I am reporting on only one aspect of the topic, (an often argued over aspect) that being the possibility of variations in German equipment colors. I witnessed these variations on two different original German vehicles with my own eyes and am reporting what I saw while providing photographs of the same. Beyond that I am in the same boat as everyone else in not knowing. Sorry if someone has mistaken me for an expert as I am not.


** One additional point: The WC is a Dodge. The DUKW's are built by GM. It is possible, just possible that these two manufactures got their paint from two different supplier companies. So it is indeed possible as Bigs says - they actually don't match!

You nailed it with the word perception. I would surplus this saying it's the human individual perception of colors (I once wrote an Essay on the particular word perception). It's fundamental to know your perception of light is the base for everything you see, the brain makes this happen so you understand, after learning being raised with teachers and books telling you it is a color, with a standard and they are actually different.
The emotional aspect, well that's another story and the best part of looking at colors anyway. And the best part, it affects all above.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan

There is an identical photo on Navsource of LST 357 showing
these same 3 vehicles in what looks to be the same color.

So which photo is correct...I suspect colorization from
2 different sources.

https://www.navsource.org/archives/10/16/1016035709.jpg

Cheers,

I think that the photo linked to by Joe is the more correct version.
The top of the hood/bonnet is dusty. Compare the hood/bonnet with the differences between the top sides of the fenders/wings. The drivers side is light and the passengers side is darker.
Now look at the bumper (less dust on a vertical surface) and the sides of the DUKW. My impression here is that the sides of the DUKW are lighter than the front of that bumper. The side of the DUKW isn't a monotone shade either so it doesn't give the impression of being almost fresh from the factory either.
/ Robin

Something possibly overlooked up to now in that photo: There is a shadow line on the ground from a building out of the frame to the left. Because of the shadow the WC is actually in that shadow whereas the DUKW is in driest sunlight.

Myself I don't think this is enough to account for the color difference but it has to be a factor.

Whatever that darker area on the ground is or isn't it hasn't caused enough shade to impact the razor sharp edge on the shadow of the WC.
If it is building it has an unusual shape if it can cause a U shaped shadow with the sun in that angle.
Compare with how the shadow falls to the left and slightly behind the WC. Also compare the darkness of the shadows thrown by the WC, DUKW and the guy standing by the DUKW. That area on the ground is too light.
The building would have to be over the WC to cause that shadow on the ground.



/ Robin

Perhaps what I was calling a shadow is just a aged patch in the tarmac.

You can't cast a shadow if you're in a shadow.

David

Here's a larger version of the picture :

http://militarymashup.com/mmu_get_jpeg.php?0a6b175b7d0ceb286b3ad2efb8f4f45ad

According to the caption I've found, it's been taken in Portland, England, just prior to the D-Day.

H.P.

I get the impression that the white stars on the side of the DUKW have been sprayed over the rope.
/ Robin

I'm not going to engage with the OD ruminations, I don't know enough about it to make any meaningful comment.
Returning to the original subject of the post, I notice in the second photo that where something appears to have been unbolted in the foreground, the paint around the holes appears darker and more brown. Is this grease or is it the original paint colour not exposed to UV unlike the surrounding parts? I was a bit surprised to see the engine block and head painted with dark yellow or sand, I thought these were usually left dark grey. I don't claim to be on first hand terms with this actual vehicle, but how do we know, given the vehicle is 70+ years old that this is original as opposed to a previous "restoration" attempt? In the case of the engine, the paint is obviously an afterthought, as where components have been removed it appears black. Even the exhaust manifold has been painted, yet I would not have thought this would last very long in use.
While we're at it, can anyone explain to me why all the breech blocks of the German tanks at Bovingdon have been painted dark green? This doesn't appear to be a standard colour, nor does it appear to match anything British.

Tiger ausf. E : Gun breech colours

It is my understanding that because of the splash board which was added to the rear of the cargo space and the use of the canvas tarp the DUKW was at much less risk of floundering when driven in reverse off the ramp of an LST when being lunched at sea. Hence the idea of driving them onto the LST when loading to then be backed off while unloading afloat at sea.

Did the "Photoshop Thing" to Henri's photo to correct for exposure and contrast:



The twin stars on the DUKW definitely look like a last minute addition. You can even see where the area was cleaned a bit to get the stencil to better conform to the uneven surface before painting.

As to if the ropes were left in place during the painting; that is anybody's guess.

I don't think there can be any doubt that the DUKW and the WC are not just different shades of OD but different paint colors entirely.

Interesting that while the DUKWs were given greater "definition of nationality" (as in additional non-reg stars) the WC has no definition what so ever and is not even wearing unit bumper identification.

Was there not an early war spec for an OD paint that was more brown-ish followed later by an OD that had more green?

I have no reference on that question but the model paint manufactures certainly seem to think so because they manufacture at least two shades of WWII OD in spray cans. One that is more brown and the other more green.

OK