IF you want to lighten the interior version of dunkelgrau, I would suggest to add a small amount of white or maybe a very light buff or "deck tan" (if using Tamiya acryls) to the dunkelgrau you use on the exterior. Your aim should be to lighten interior just a little to better reveal some interior features - historically, it would have been the same dark grey in and out, so you don't want a really different grey on the interior.

Your after-paint weathering really offers you a lot of opportunities for the inside - everything got dusty (and dust will lighten and high-light interior stuff), and interiors got scuffed and worn, so there are many surfaces where you get to show dirt and wear. And of course, mud and road-dirt got inside, so...

Personally, I would, as I've done on a couple of builds years ago, use the same grey in and out, and use my dust and dirt application to make the interior more varied and interesting. Just some thoughts.

Cheers! Bob

I finally made a decision on what I am going to do... Its Stalingrad 60th infantry div. 1942-1943. So this is gonna be an early 251 ausf C. Please correct me if Im wrong, this will be painted all panzer gray with an ivory driver compartment.. right? And, Im assuming the big fuel pump in the rear of the troop compartment is going to be painted panzer gray with the rest of the interior?

Thanks

I think that you have it right: ALL dunkelgrau in and out save for underneath the driver's roof and forward interior, which was likely painted in the standard elfinbein (a light ivory). Do take a look at some of the posted -251 builds to get some ideas of how folks have handled (painted) the floors and various internal features.

That pump you mention is / was, I think, the pump to drive the flame-throwers in the 251/16. As it was added equipment and not an organic feature of the base 251 vehicle (and thus not something installed at the assembly plant during primary assembly - it was an accessory added after the base vehicle was completed), it could have been painted some other color then the vehicle base-coat - maybe a field-grey as used on some issued equipment, or... I think that you 1) have some options with this, and 2) may want to see if you can find some posted 251/16 builds and see what others have elected. Not that what others have done is necessarily RIGHT or wholly accurate, but their treatments could fuel your ideas.

IF you are building a "Stalingrad" vehicle, you may want to consider whether your vehicle is supposed to be one before the Nov 1942 encirclement took place (i.e., a vehicle operating during summer and fall conditions as the 6th Army and attached units fought towards Stalingrad), or one which is now part of the encircled 6th Army heading into its fatal winter in the city. This could well affect how you weather the vehicle and what "cargo" and extras you select to add into and on it. A 251/16 encircled in town after later Nov 1942 would increasingly likely have had little fuel for its flame-throwers as 1942 progressed, and may well have become more of an infantry fire-point rather then a mobile offensive vehicle by Dec 1942.

Cheers! Bob

According to Panzer Tracts 15-3, SdKfz 251/16 ausf C went into production January 1943. Therefore, this variant of 251 would not have been at Stalingrad.

If you decide upon dark grey exterior paint scheme and assuming a unit issued vehicle, then you would have two options; dark grey with white winter camouflage or dark grey with potentially any combination of oversprayed dark yellow, olive green, and/or red-brown. Either one would be a good choice.


I have only been able to locate photographs of an ivory painted driver compartment for ausf A or B.

IF Doyle was RIGHT, all would have to agree with and accept that NO Ausf C could have been at Stalingrad.

I've long been a Doyle fan, but sad to say, some things stated in PanzerTracts just don't always bear up as well as we might all wish.

Take a look at the old German photo for sale on eBay... complete with the following legend which states in part that this photo is from August 1942 of a 16th Pz. Div vehicle moving towards Stalingrad. Clearly, it is a 251/C.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-2-WK-original-Photo-Stalingrad-16th-Tank-Division-1942-6th-Army-Paulus-/133053741839

Top!! 2 WK original Photo estate 16th Tank Division 6th Army Paulus / original estate 16. Panzer Division 6. Armee Paulus / Panzer-Regiment 2 zwischen Don und Stalingrad im Sommer und Herbst 1942. Jagdpanzer Hornisse und SdKFZ Halbkette Führungsfahrzeuge Divisionskommandeur Hans-Valentin Hube, Kämpfe und Vormarsch Kalatsch / Don und Angriff auf Stalingrad. Originales Fotos aus dem Nachlass der Division. Die 16. Panzer-Division wurde als "Speerspitze" der 6. Armee bezeichnet. Sie erreichte am 23.August 1942 als erste Einheit die Wolga. Die Division wurde im Kessel von Stalingrad vollständig vernichtet. Von den etwa 10.000 Soldaten der Division überlebten die Schlacht von Stalingrad und die anschließende Gefangenschaft nur 128 Soldaten. Im Jahr 1943 wurde sie vollkommen neu aufgestellt.
Zustand: Gebraucht. Foto ist scharf, sehr guter Zustand. sharp, very good condition
Versand mit Deutsche Post Brief versichert. Privatverkauf.

Is the German seller just flim-flamming us, or is the photo pretty much what he said it is? YOU are the jury.

There are many posted photos of 251 Ausf C said to be from 1942 in Russia. When one searches web sites concerning the Sd.Kfz. 251, one finds a range of production-period starts - from later 1941 to mid-1942 - claimed for Ausf. C. When one looks up various model kits of Ausf C variants from seemingly reputable manufacturers - Dragon / Cyber Hobby, AFV Club - one finds attributions and paint-schemes and decals for 1942 vehicles. Granted, kit mfgrs get lots wrong. But strangely, other then a small fandom which occasionally cites Doyle about his 1943 production claim, the model community - a large number of often very informed and very interested folks - seem largely less-than-assertive and loud about this point. One might expect the fervent to be shouting about how the unit and date attributions are simply wrong...

While some consider H. Doyle and PanzerTracts something akin to the Holy Bible when talking about German WWII armor, I find that there are all too many seeming contradictions to consider Doyle and P-T as being somehow always infallible and gospel-like. Often so, yes. Always? NO. The Sd.Kfz. 251 Ausf C is a case in point. Either EVERYONE else is somehow just wrong or even way wrong and Doyle is right, or... Doyle is wrong about when that Ausf was produced. You have to make your choice. I'll go with mid-1942.

I'm not the expert on this or perhaps on anything else. My SUGGESTION, for what it may be worth, is to go with the Ausf C being a 1942 production, and, as many photos seem to show, present in later 1942 in the 6th Army as it approached Stalingrad. From this, I would go with appropriate dunkelgrau paint schemes as I have described, and with available markings for appropriate units in that action. That's of course my OPINION and SUGGESTION.

As for the interior scheme of the driver's compartment of these vehicles: There are VERY, VERY, FEW clear and potentially indicative photographs showing the interior of Sd.Kfz. 251 - and of those, FEW (if ANY) in any way clearly show enough to solidly determine what exactly was the interior color or paint scheme. Two years ago, I commenced a web research project for exactly this purpose - I searched out images of 250 and 251 with aim to document certain specific interior details, including evidence of what "really" was the interior paint scheme in the driver's compartment. This research was triggered by a couple of threads on Armorama and another web armor modeling site where certain details were under substantial and occasionally vigorous - even heated - debate by various strongly-opinionated "experts". I viewed over 3800 wartime photos of the subject vehicles. Those photos fill space in one of my hard drives. IIRC from my data record, all of perhaps 11 actually showed much clear view of most of the compartment interiors. Such interior images are extremely RARE. There simply is not much actual record to go forth and argue from about interior paint schemes and details.

IF as mentioned there are photos showing the elfinbein driver's interior in Ausf A and B... (I would bet that I've seen them and have them in my files, if they have ever appeared on the web), Seems mighty likely that this scheme could well have also been used in Ausf C. Just a thought!

As for camo on dunkelgrau vehicles. NO "regulation" camo scheme or colors allowed or prescribed between July 1940 and Feb 1943. Mud? White wash in winter? Unit-level and vehicle / crew-level use of captured and "acquired" colors as camo? All YES.

Cheers! Bob

The 251/16 variant went into production Jan 1943. The 251/1 and some other variants were already in production. SdKfz 251/1 Ausf C would be present in Stalingrad, but not the 251/16.

OK. So, let's assume that P-T has it right and the 251-C/16 only started coming out in Jan of 1943... Let's explore that.

This would mean that there would have been VERY FEW C/16 even produced before factory painting shifted over to base-coating in dunkelgelb from late Feb 1943. The /16 variant was never very common and was never produced in any large numbers. It surely did not amount to as much as 10% of serial production when it did get produced. Given as total 251 production in any month from all 7 makers amounted to maybe 300 or so at the best of times... And we can likely safely assume that not all makers built this apparently "new" variant in Jan 1943, and we can likely safely assume that /16 was not actually a priority variant when it entered production in Jan 1943 (if indeed it ever became a priority variant - /16 is very rare in the photo record, and most /16 so recorded are Ausf D based). So we may be talking about a real modest "handful" - 5? 10? - of 251-C/16 which even had any real chance of hitting any unit while wearing dunkelgrau.

And bear in mind that it did not simply teleport instantly from the assembly plant door out to the distant field unit. It would realistically take several weeks or even over a month for any vehicle to get from the plant to a unit. I would be pretty sure that NO Sd.Kfz. 251 of any variant made in Jan 1943 actually hit a field unit and entered into action in Russia before mid-Feb or even early Mar 1943. And how long did it survive once in the field?

From this, one should reasonably conclude that a dunkelgrau 251-C/16 in any field unit was a very rare beast. And, given its Jan 1943 production start, NOT possible in Stalingrad. THAT, at least seems well-settled! NO Stalingrad C/16. For the builder seeking a historically-accurate dunkelgrau C/16, you have your research cut out for you. It was a rare beast and likely very little actual record exists showing it.

For the OP: Frankly, short of finding clear documentation of a dunkelgrau C/16 in ANY unit anywhere (and modeling that particular vehicle), I suggest that you would be much "safer", if you are seeking some reasonable paint-scheme accuracy while doing a "non-specific vehicle - as most of us modelers do-, to go for a dunkelgelb base-coat, with or without added camo colors.

Which takes me back to what I mentioned awhile ago: It is wholly possible that any of those very few Jan and Feb 1943 all-dunkelgrau first-production 251-C/16 which did arrive in field units in Russia would soon have been repainted in dunkelgelb per regulation, and surely so by May of 1943 - presuming that that rare dunkelgrau beastie had actually survived in action to that time. And that repainting in some rear shop or refit facility would most likely have been "exterior only" - leaving one the (to me) very interesting potential option of painting my putative early - production C/16 dunkelgrau inside and dunkelgelb w/ or w/o camo outside!

Alternatively, you are of course fully free to paint it any scheme that you like. You don't have to be historically accurate - it's no law! There are many more kits of the rather rare 251-C/16 'tracks out there and built then there ever were real 'tracks of the sort. Most of us armor modelers build our kits to suit our fancy and our mental image of what things could have likely appeared like "at some point in time". We nod at historical accuracy and its really narrow and constraining aspects and details. And, by me, that's all A-OK! It's a hobby and for fun and not in general a grim pursuit of total historical accuracy. So lean back from some of our analness and seeming contention and RELAX! Pick your scheme, incorporate as little or much of the discussion as you want to as to how it might look, grab your paints, and GO TO IT! The goal, IMHO, really should be for you to get a build that YOU LIKE and feel good with!

Cheers! Bob

Sorry I took so long responding and putting updates up, I had a few set backs and now I'm back on track! First..I am so grateful you guys found this post! I have learned so much about the 251 family that I am going to build 2 more in the near future... Maybe afv club this time, I kinda like this dragon kit but I feel like there are better lots out there. Anyways i finally decided what I'm going to do. Although you are correct about the 251/16 coming out when the factories switched to dunkelgelb, that color makes this death wagon look a little less intimidating. So, to be somewhat accurate' I'm going with an early 251 with the correct markings for the 60th inf. Div. Im painting dark grey all over because I feel that it will match the 251/16 "personality" a lot better than yellow would!

Here is a picture of the drivers compartment, i messed up on the wash so i gonna have to take it off and re do it... I can not apply washes at all!so if anybody has any pointers please feel free to give advice. And as always feel free to criticize and if i did anything wrong please let me know!

For some reason, I keep getting error code 500 on Kitmaker when I try to upload the picture... Ill try again tomorrow

IF you are trying to add a pic to your photos gallery ("My Photos") - you MAY be seeing that error message because you have already filled your available photo space - the photo that you want to add is too large for whatever space you have left in your allocation.

IF that is the case, you can try deleting one or more photos from your collection to increase the available room. Or maybe try reducing the size of the photo that you want to upload.

Cheers! Bob

Finally! some updates on this!!

I didnt chip any of the fuel tanks or anything because this is a new upgrade to an older ausf C so I want the flame thrower upgrade to look new. I have a couple more questions... Were the seats made out of leather or some kind of black canvas? and the radio, is it the same color as the interior or a slightly different grey?

Looking good. It is my understanding that the front seats were leather. For the radio, I suggest a different gray. A search for fu sprech should result in some color images.

I just wanna check in and let everybody know I am still working on the project! I have been a little busy with life and hopefully ill have some updates soon! Oh.. Happy New Years everybody!!!

After a long break I finally made some progress with this project! Here are some updates and as always feedback is always welcome (even if negative!)





I still have to finish adding all the breakable crap like the lights and antennas but that will be fine last for obvious reasons. I also haven't finished weathering it yet but that's soon to come!

I noticed that in original pictures (black and white photos) of 251's is a majority don't have unit numbers on the side. Only on hobby photos and revival of actual 251's have unit numbers... So I don't know if I should not included them or not... If I do it's gonna be 04 because that's apparently a lucky German number. This model isn't marked as an actual unit so the numbers can be anything.

I have 2 more questions to ask....
What color were the uniforms of the flamethrower dudes? I painted them a dark green but most pictures I see if them are dark grey or dark blue, even in an old black and white photo they seem to be dark.



2nd question... It's kinda not related to this project but does anybody have a spare sprocket wheel for a 1/35 maultier? I lost one for another project! Thanks

I forgot to post the finished pictures! I got a little creative with their masks... Let me know what you think. As always all types of criticism is welcomed