Is there such a thing as neutral weathering products where you would add for example your Acrylic colour of choice and use as usual.
This thought is based upon pots and pots of different products covering my work area?
Looking forward to answers
Chris
AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
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weathering products
chrisb760
Joined: January 05, 2015
KitMaker: 70 posts
Armorama: 47 posts
Posted: Monday, January 13, 2020 - 10:20 PM UTC
southpier
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Monday, January 13, 2020 - 11:38 PM UTC
I have never seen a "universal" weathering medium.
but I agree paint management can be a hobby unto itself. new products & companies coming almost weekly with "improved" product does make one wonder, though.
if it's any consolation, hold dear the thought 'one who knows the most, needs the least'. modeling is a journey and as you gain experience, things which you initially thought the "be-all" product will fall by the wayside for the basic "go-to" that gives your creations instant recognition among your fans.
personally, I am still perfecting my formula for an oil paint that will replicate German Leibermuster camouflage straight from the tube. I predict my pending retirement and purchase of south sea island in its wake.
EDIT: just posted to my youtube subscriptions and validates my above observation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5xDqzxbRB4
but I agree paint management can be a hobby unto itself. new products & companies coming almost weekly with "improved" product does make one wonder, though.
if it's any consolation, hold dear the thought 'one who knows the most, needs the least'. modeling is a journey and as you gain experience, things which you initially thought the "be-all" product will fall by the wayside for the basic "go-to" that gives your creations instant recognition among your fans.
personally, I am still perfecting my formula for an oil paint that will replicate German Leibermuster camouflage straight from the tube. I predict my pending retirement and purchase of south sea island in its wake.
EDIT: just posted to my youtube subscriptions and validates my above observation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5xDqzxbRB4
errains
#045
Joined: September 23, 2005
KitMaker: 362 posts
Armorama: 350 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 01:26 AM UTC
Chris, This will be an interesting thread to follow for sure. Let me first start by saying I agree with the observation made by JSmith exspelly "one who knows the most, needs the least". We watch videos on Youtube where see rows after rows of finishing products in the background that in turn makes us believe that is what we "NEED". Makes me wonder if they even use half that stuff...Oh power marketing.
I like you once had products that took more space on my workbench then I area to work in. Over the past few years I have gotten rid of 95% of all that crap I hardly used and focused my finish products down to four manufactures.
From Left to Right...
a) Vantage Modelling Solutions (VMS)(Pigments)
b) True-Earth (Excellent Water based paints...Did I say these are Excellent!)
c) Mission Models (Airbrushing)
d) Winsor & Newton Artisan Water Mixable Oil Paints (Primary weather mothed...see examples from Michael Rinaldi)
The common theme is that all the above can be manipulated with water. (and a nip of dishwasher duragent)
I do have very few speciality products such as Textured acrylic with gress mixed in, snow effects and just recently AK's weathering pencils which I'm just trying to see what they are like.
So what the bottomline from my perspective...with the vast range of choices find the one, or few, you are most comfortable with and develop your skill set to best achieve the results you are looking for. And Don't Succumb to Hyper Marketing!
I like you once had products that took more space on my workbench then I area to work in. Over the past few years I have gotten rid of 95% of all that crap I hardly used and focused my finish products down to four manufactures.
From Left to Right...
a) Vantage Modelling Solutions (VMS)(Pigments)
b) True-Earth (Excellent Water based paints...Did I say these are Excellent!)
c) Mission Models (Airbrushing)
d) Winsor & Newton Artisan Water Mixable Oil Paints (Primary weather mothed...see examples from Michael Rinaldi)
The common theme is that all the above can be manipulated with water. (and a nip of dishwasher duragent)
I do have very few speciality products such as Textured acrylic with gress mixed in, snow effects and just recently AK's weathering pencils which I'm just trying to see what they are like.
So what the bottomline from my perspective...with the vast range of choices find the one, or few, you are most comfortable with and develop your skill set to best achieve the results you are looking for. And Don't Succumb to Hyper Marketing!
chrisb760
Joined: January 05, 2015
KitMaker: 70 posts
Armorama: 47 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 03:06 AM UTC
Well thank you from someone who's only been doing this for a couple of years and I am, I think still experimenting the. Hence the topic, vetting all the tips and products.
But I will take note of my peers.
Thank you
But I will take note of my peers.
Thank you
j76lr
Joined: September 22, 2006
KitMaker: 1,081 posts
Armorama: 1,066 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 03:52 AM UTC
This is great advice !!!
varanusk
Managing Editor
Joined: July 04, 2013
KitMaker: 1,288 posts
Armorama: 942 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 09:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Is there such a thing as neutral weathering products where you would add for example your Acrylic colour of choice and use as usual.
As far as I know the best system matching this description is VMS, but instead of using acrylic colours you use pigments. Check the videos for each product in the Pigment Binders Section, their are quite informative.
Start with the ENML binder and see what can be done:
https://www.vms-supplies.com/vms-enml-20-binders
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 03:32 PM UTC
When I started we made our own weathering products using enamels, artist oils, thinners, powder poster paints borrowed from art class, chalks, graphite powder, dry wall compound, plaster of paris and good old Testors Dullcote and Glosscote.
Artist oils I use are raw and burnt umber and sienna, charcoal grey, blue, yellow. They make great washes and panel line washes. Ground chalk makes excellent dust. These products last for years.
In my opinion the new pre-made stuff is for those who don't know how or don't want to make their own products and for taking your money.
There are some products that I'm interested in, such as premade mud and wet effects. Also a good engine oil wash.
Practice the old school techniques first using what you have before wasting money on fancy products you may only use once. You may find you enjoy making your own washes and effects and it is a skill you should know anyway because the companies making weathering products can't cover every need.
Artist oils I use are raw and burnt umber and sienna, charcoal grey, blue, yellow. They make great washes and panel line washes. Ground chalk makes excellent dust. These products last for years.
In my opinion the new pre-made stuff is for those who don't know how or don't want to make their own products and for taking your money.
There are some products that I'm interested in, such as premade mud and wet effects. Also a good engine oil wash.
Practice the old school techniques first using what you have before wasting money on fancy products you may only use once. You may find you enjoy making your own washes and effects and it is a skill you should know anyway because the companies making weathering products can't cover every need.
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 10:11 PM UTC
The few times I did washes I used the brownish-green-yukk-coloured liquid that was in the jar I used to wash my brushes and do initial clean-up of the airbrush.
The larger particles settled after a while but the small stayed suspended and could be used as a wash.
It contained all the colours/hues used on the model so it worked great to blend in the colours with each other and make the camo-pattern less stark by subduing the contrasts.
This is not the solution to all washing and weathering, rather an extreme counter example to all the fancy products on sale. Most of the washes on the market are extremely diluted paint or mixes of paints.
Be prepared, the text below is
I buy pre-sliced bread since it saves time but I do peel my own potatoes. I don't buy spice mixes either but I don't grow my own chilipeppers either.
/ Robin
Edit: Mentioning chilipeppers made me hungry all of a sudden ....
The larger particles settled after a while but the small stayed suspended and could be used as a wash.
It contained all the colours/hues used on the model so it worked great to blend in the colours with each other and make the camo-pattern less stark by subduing the contrasts.
This is not the solution to all washing and weathering, rather an extreme counter example to all the fancy products on sale. Most of the washes on the market are extremely diluted paint or mixes of paints.
Be prepared, the text below is
I buy pre-sliced bread since it saves time but I do peel my own potatoes. I don't buy spice mixes either but I don't grow my own chilipeppers either.
/ Robin
Edit: Mentioning chilipeppers made me hungry all of a sudden ....
chrisb760
Joined: January 05, 2015
KitMaker: 70 posts
Armorama: 47 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 10:55 PM UTC
I thought I'd mention I only use brushes. But all of your advice will still apply?
Thank you all for your very informative replies
Thank you all for your very informative replies
errains
#045
Joined: September 23, 2005
KitMaker: 362 posts
Armorama: 350 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 01:46 AM UTC
Chris;
Great results can be achieved with brush painting. Below is my current build. I first sprayed it flat black from a Krylon rattle can. After that had cured the entire models was brushed paint using oil paints.
(This is a What-If project for a group build on another model site)
Let me know if your interested in the method and I can go into more detail on how I did this.
Great results can be achieved with brush painting. Below is my current build. I first sprayed it flat black from a Krylon rattle can. After that had cured the entire models was brushed paint using oil paints.
(This is a What-If project for a group build on another model site)
Let me know if your interested in the method and I can go into more detail on how I did this.
chrisb760
Joined: January 05, 2015
KitMaker: 70 posts
Armorama: 47 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 03:30 AM UTC
Hi Eric yes I would be interested, I've finished an M911 Tractor unit and M747 Trailer. The M60 A2 Is my first Tank and brush painting Desert Grey.
Thanks very much
Thanks very much
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 06:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The few times I did washes I used the brownish-green-yukk-coloured liquid that was in the jar I used to wash my brushes and do initial clean-up of the airbrush.
The larger particles settled after a while but the small stayed suspended and could be used as a wash.
It contained all the colours/hues used on the model so it worked great to blend in the colours with each other and make the camo-pattern less stark by subduing the contrasts.
This is not the solution to all washing and weathering, rather an extreme counter example to all the fancy products on sale. Most of the washes on the market are extremely diluted paint or mixes of paints.
I buy pre-sliced bread since it saves time but I do peel my own potatoes. I don't buy spice mixes either but I don't grow my own chilipeppers either.
/ Robin
Edit: Mentioning chilipeppers made me hungry all of a sudden ....
Wait..... They sell pre-peeled potatoes? Where can I find them? Only in Sweden?
If paint and weathering supply manufacturers start putting out weathering sets according to geographical locations I might reconsider my stance on pre-made products. So if they came out with a set for let's say Vietnam highlands or Golan Heights, or East Germany cold war then my interest might be piqued.
Now, seeing as Robin piqued my interest in food, I'm going to get some French fries. That's pommes frites Robin and maybe a french dip sandwich.
southpier
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 11:54 AM UTC
how would one pre-peel a potato?
anything like pre-drilling a hole?
how would one drill a hole before drilling a hole?
sounds like a trip through the looking glass ...
anything like pre-drilling a hole?
how would one drill a hole before drilling a hole?
sounds like a trip through the looking glass ...
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 03:47 PM UTC
Whoa.... Mind. Blown.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 06:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
how would one pre-peel a potato?
anything like pre-drilling a hole?
how would one drill a hole before drilling a hole?
sounds like a trip through the looking glass ...
Sold in jars or in vacuum sealed bags ....
Sliced:
The mounting holes in IKEA furniture comes pre-drilled from factory so that the buyer doesn't have to drill them.
In Sweden there is a dish called pyttipanna which is mostly sliced and diced potatoes with sliced and diced pieces of meat (a way to take care of leftovers).
Looks like this:
and you can buy canned sliced&diced potatoes
Many years ago I saw packages with a mix of pre-sliced&diced potatoes and meat. Ready for the frying pan.
It is also sold pre-assembled:
ready for the microwave ...
We also have a dish called 'lapskojs', it was served a few times when I went to school. Our opinion was that it looked as if it was pre-eaten ...
Chew on that for a while ...
Goes by other names in other countries.
/ Robin
southpier
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 08:23 PM UTC
so they're peeled. and sliced.
no labels indicated any "pre", extra "pre", or "pre" free.
Ikea stuff comes drilled so the consumer doesn't have to drill.
no extra bag of holes to be inserted in the event one of the factory drilled holes is lost.
no labels indicated any "pre", extra "pre", or "pre" free.
Ikea stuff comes drilled so the consumer doesn't have to drill.
no extra bag of holes to be inserted in the event one of the factory drilled holes is lost.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 09:37 PM UTC
Some things have many names 'pommes frites' or 'french fries', 'goatee' or 'french tickler' ....
Pre-anything means that it has been done by someone else, usually the producer/vendor so that the buyer/consumer does not have to do it.
(jeez ....)and bananas
avocado
A prejudice on the other hand is a decision before the evaluation (pre = before, judice = judge).
Prepared = before + armed
Si vis pacem, para bellum or as it was originally written by Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus:
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
Over and out, almost time for some left overs from yesterday: meat sauce and some pasta (which I cooked myself
) None of this:
for me
/ Robin
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 10:26 PM UTC
For people who have no idea how to cook and boiling water is too complicated or time consuming.
Pre-peeled bananas. Now I've seen it all.
What next? Pre-painted, pre-weathered and pre-built models?
Oh, wait, sorry, I got some of those on my shelves.
Move along, nothing to see here.
Pre-peeled bananas. Now I've seen it all.
What next? Pre-painted, pre-weathered and pre-built models?
Oh, wait, sorry, I got some of those on my shelves.
Move along, nothing to see here.
Dioramartin
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 1,476 posts
Armorama: 1,463 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 - 11:44 PM UTC
Hmm nice, I seem to have wandered into Nilsson’s Online Supermarket, can you direct me to the pre-purchase shopping trolleys or should I pre-order?
While we’re so I also have a beef about the ridiculous unnecessary mis-use of “pre-….”. Such as pre-planned, pre-prepared etc. And while I’m at it, why has the word “twice” been banished from the language? Why use one word when two will do, as in “two times”.
Anyhow I agree about trying out cheap domestic products for weathering effects like fillers & putties mixed with kids’ powder paints. You can buy more kits with the money saved
While we’re so
I also have a beef about the ridiculous unnecessary mis-use of “pre-….”. Such as pre-planned, pre-prepared etc. And while I’m at it, why has the word “twice” been banished from the language? Why use one word when two will do, as in “two times”.Anyhow I agree about trying out cheap domestic products for weathering effects like fillers & putties mixed with kids’ powder paints. You can buy more kits with the money saved
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2020 - 12:17 AM UTC
Precisely, the useful word 'twice' should indeed take precedence over 'two times' in almost all uses.
Except: calling someone a twiceing cheating bastard lacks a little something, in this case "two timing" is definitely preferrable
/ Robin
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2020 - 01:31 AM UTC
The idea of one set of products such as a carrier with which you mix different elements sounds good to me. so much so I followed up on the VMS suggestion and will probably get some.
What amazes me is the amount of almost modelling snobbery expressed by those who don't use purchased specific weathering products towards those that do.
It simply a matter of choice at the end of the day, and some prefer to take the easy route if cost isn't an issue.
It's got nothing to do with creative or artistic skills, just convenience and whatever enjoyment you get from doing modelling your way.
Alan
What amazes me is the amount of almost modelling snobbery expressed by those who don't use purchased specific weathering products towards those that do.
It simply a matter of choice at the end of the day, and some prefer to take the easy route if cost isn't an issue.
It's got nothing to do with creative or artistic skills, just convenience and whatever enjoyment you get from doing modelling your way.
Alan
southpier
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2020 - 05:37 AM UTC
next thing you guys will be doing is rubbing a pencil on a piece of sandpaper and smudging it all over your models! shades of the 1950s.
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2020 - 06:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
next thing you guys will be doing is rubbing a pencil on a piece of sandpaper and smudging it all over your models! shades of the 1950s.
I was doing that a few hours ago, doing some old vinyl Tamiya panther tracks. Graphite sticks to the vinyl better and once I hit it with a bit of dullcote it won't rub off, tho you still have to be careful handling them.
errains
#045
Joined: September 23, 2005
KitMaker: 362 posts
Armorama: 350 posts
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2020 - 08:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What amazes me is the amount of almost modelling snobbery expressed...
Not sure it this is directed toward the comments I left but let me say that NO snobbery was intended and if it was perceived that way or offended anyone I do apologise as it was not my intent.
I do totally agree that is a personal choice and that convenience is THE leading factor for choosing to use products X, Y or Z.
So let get this thread back ON TOPIC shall we...
Chris, I'll work up a post on the techniques I use for brush paint a model with oils this weekend, look for it on Late Sunday afternoon or evening your time (GMT)
Tank1812
Joined: April 29, 2014
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 886 posts
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2020 - 08:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Chris, I'll work up a post on the techniques I use for brush paint a model with oils this weekend, look for it on Late Sunday afternoon or evening your time (GMT)
I do look forward to seeing that also. Can you explain more about the cork base, seems very interesting, why was it done that way?
Thanks,
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