Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Why W.Allies used whole war obsolete tanks ?
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 12:08 PM UTC

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Panther or Sherman HEAD TO HEAD. You in Sherman. Which would YOU rather be in?Thats what I’m saying. Sherman is dead meat...1 shot kill.



The subject of this thread is why the western allies continued to use the Sherman tank. It is not about which tank would win in a head to head frontal duel. That scenario isn't the most common one. If it had been Germany would have won the war.

I would rather be a crewman of that Panther stuck in the repair shop at the maintenance company since it broke down again.
Fighting from ambush or attacking across open fields against hedgerows where the enemy can hide are quite different.
I would like to see what would happen if US tank units were defending behind hedgerows against Panthers attacking across an open field.




You don't have to look hard for examples, the Canadians and the British had a few great examples where they decimated the Panthers wiht this exact scenario, one which hte fanboys always overlook
Zildjian1819
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 03:14 PM UTC
From 2 Sherman tank drivers. THEY wanted BIGGER guns and MORE armor.That’s what they told me in person. Do you get your info from books or real Sherman tankers...IN PERSON?
knewton
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 04:09 PM UTC
What I find amazing is that the OP question was soundly debunked in the first few replies, yet somehow it’s still being debated six pages later.
Scarred
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 05:25 PM UTC

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From 2 Sherman tank drivers. THEY wanted BIGGER guns and MORE armor.That’s what they told me in person. Do you get your info from books or real Sherman tankers...IN PERSON?



Everybody wants bigger guns and more armor even today. But what you are totally unable to comprehend is that there were limits to what we could do at the time. The german navy was sinking cargo ships every day. We could build bigger ships at a slower rate and England would have gone under. The trains used to move the tanks from factory to ports limited the size of tanks we could build and transport. Stopping production and switching to heavy tank manufacturing would of taken years to do and to build up numbers of tanks needed and to retrain the crews. This would have allowed Hitler to continue to commit atrocities and Russia would have taken all of Europe. We also told Stalin we would open a second front to help fight Hitler. Germany was working on bombers to hit the US. They could have completed such a plane while we were rearming to satisfy you. Hitler could have dropped chemical, bio or nuke weapons on New York. There was no conspiracy to keep the Pershing out of the war, it wasn't ready to go until 44. While the Sherman was being improved and made more effective all the time. It was a tough vehicle and the men who fought in them were tougher. But you can sit back now, 75 years after the fact, and gripe that the tank wasn't any good and it was a crime to have even use it. Well, you weren't there, I wasn't there and most of the critics weren't there. And for your information every weapon used had flaws. There are no perfect tanks, there are no perfect apc's and there are no perfect weapons. I'm sure the Russians, who touted the superiority of their tanks, got a rude awakening during Desert Storm when the Abrams were blowing them up from incredible distances and cutting thru their armor like a hot knife thru butter.
Scarred
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 05:36 PM UTC

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The US never formally recognized E. Germany



Hardly related to the topic, but the Hallstein doctrine was abandoned in the early '70s. By 1974 the US had full diplomatic relations with East Germany.



I should have added that as it was still WW2 over there they didn't recognized E. Germany as having a place in the status of Berlin. E. Germany had demanded to be recognized by the SOFA but while Russia was for it, the US, England and France refused because E. Germany didn't exist at the time Berlin fell and Germany surrendered.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 06:30 PM UTC

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From 2 Sherman tank drivers. THEY wanted BIGGER guns and MORE armor.That’s what they told me in person. Do you get your info from books or real Sherman tankers...IN PERSON?



I bet every tanker in every war wants the same thing
BUT
this desire does not make the Sherman obsolete.

On the other hand:
Russian tankers did get something that was better than what they had at the beginning of the war and then the Germans built the Panther and suddenly the T-34 was "obsolete" again.

If you ask infantry soldiers they will probably want a rifle with greater range, more rounds in the magazine, lighter to carry and with improved accuracy but this does not mean their current rifle is obsolete.
Scarred
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 07:56 PM UTC
When the Army got rid of the .45's and switched to 9mm's you should have heard the howling. "The 9mm round is too fast, no knockdown power, you'll have to shoot the enemy more than once". Most of the older soldiers who were Vietnam Vets wanted nothing to do with it. Special Ops was against it and managed to hang onto theirs longer.
babaoriley
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 08:05 PM UTC

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Which tank would YOU rather be in? Imagine if all those Sherman’s were comparable to Panther and Tiger. The U.S. would’ve wreaked havoc.They may have saved lives else where, but the tankers were getting massacred.So what you’re saying is sacrifice Sherman crew’s so other’s may live?I don’t know man, but if I were a tanker back then, I would prefer Panther or Tiger.Safer than a Sherman.When 1 shell from them can kill a Sherman ...



How is a Panther or Tiger safer when it's destroyed by Allied air power long before it gets close to the Shermans? Or it has to be blown up by it's own crew because it has broken down, or run out of gas? Or its inexperienced crew reverses onto rubble and gets stuck (as in the case of one well-known Tiger)?

I can't see why I would want to be a crew member in a tank that is massively outnumbered, is constantly targeted by enemy fighter bombers with no friendly air cover, is mechanically unreliable, is always short of fuel, and which might at any time be ordered into an impossible situation by national leadership totally detached from reality.

That Panthers and Tigers could kill a Sherman with one shot is irrelevant to the larger question--which side had the upper hand most of the time and was inexorably moving towards victory despite the best efforts of the German military? This wasn't a contest of one tank vs. another on a featureless plain, this was a war between armies and it was one Germany was always going to lose despite the supposed superiority of its weapons.

Why did Germany beat France in 1940? It wasn't better tanks, it was better doctrine as much as anything, things quite aside from armor thickness and gun power. The better tank doesn't win, the better army wins, and in 1944/45 that was the one with control of the air and numerical and logistical superiority.
AFVNEWS
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 07:19 AM UTC
Now THAT is the most well thought through answer so far.
GB
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 08:02 AM UTC

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I don’t do video games, but I read true history books.And I’m talking tank vs tank in a duel. Not air or artillery support. I mean which tank is going to deflect on coming AP shot. Not reliability, track or engine life,etc. I’m talking penetration and protection.



and everyone else is saying that thinking in such horribly limited and short-sighted terms loses you a war
Zildjian1819
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 08:27 AM UTC
How many Sherman’s were destroyed before air/ artillery support was brought to bear in the battle. Maybe the quickest way is to upgrade Sherman’s to Jumbo standards and mount a 90mm gun from the factory? Sherman was’nt obsolete, but could’ve used factory upgrades? Tankers were fitting appliqué armor in the field.That tell’s you something. My 2 Sherman tanker buddies verified that to me in 1980. Wish they were still around.My hats’ off to them.Thank’s guy’s.
Zildjian1819
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 08:38 AM UTC
And in reply to Vance.Do you want to be in that Sherman that is penetrated? If Sherman was so good, why was M-26 developed and fielded. I would like to have an equal to my enemy at least.From what I read and saw in documentaries, the field commanders were screaming for more m-26’s after seeing how good they performed. My Sherman buddies did’nt crew M-26’s so they never commented on that.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 08:48 AM UTC

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How many Sherman’s were destroyed before air/ artillery support was brought to bear in the battle.



In many cases the allied tactical air forces decimated German tank formations BEFORE they even got to the front.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 09:01 AM UTC
quote[Why did Germany beat France in 1940? It wasn't better tanks, it was better doctrine as much as anything, things quite aside from armor thickness and gun power. The better tank doesn't win, the better army wins, and in 1944/45 that was the one with control of the air and numerical and logistical superiority.]quote

The answer posed for why Germany beat France (and the Brits, Belgians, Dutch, Danes, and Norwegians, too...) in 1940 was indeed a pretty clear demonstration of "better". Those victories collectively demonstrated that the German Army was simply decidedly more effective at being an army - it had better training, skill-sets, leadership, and tactical doctrine than did its opponents, allowing victory despite German numbers being less, and most German equipment mostly no better (and in terms of armor, much was poorer) than those of their major opponents.

Having greater numbers on the field, command of the air, and better supply availability does not make an Army better. It may, as for the Allies in 1945, enable the larger force to be victorious. I doubt most folks would say that the Red Army had somehow become "better" than the German 6th Army just because that experienced and formerly hugely-victorious force became surrounded, vastly out-numbered, and cut off from ammo, food, and fuel at Stalingrad in 1942. I doubt that anyone claims that the Somali militia forces in Mogdishu were a "better army" than those few US Navy Seals... But they did win that affair - by sheer numbers and command of the local environment. I doubt that most folks would claim that the Red Chinese "Volunteers" at Chosin, Korea were the "better Army" then were the USMC caught up in the debacle around that reservoir. But those Chinese DID WIN, although perhaps 120,000 or more never got to join the victory parade after that fight. Numbers do count - but numbers do not well-define any version of being "better". Ask those Romans at Cannae, or the 50,000 who marched off into the Teutoburger Wald about 2000 years ago.

As for the OP's original "why" question...

Putting aside his perhaps unfortunate insertion of the opinion about Allied tanks being "obsolete" (a matter I certainly cannot claim any expertise about... and have virtually no interest in the debate around which was "better". ), the answer to "why" any army brings the equipment it does to a war is pretty simple: You always run what "you brung". That's the only stuff you have to bring. The Germans ran the near-useless Pz.I in France, 1940. Certainly a poor match against almost any French or Brit tank. But Pz. I is what they had. Perhaps some will forever continue the debate about "why" any given type of tank was designed and produced and issued - certainly there are lots of interesting stories behind those questions - but the fact remains that every army brings what it has. WHY it has whatever it has is really a separate question.

Bob
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 09:22 AM UTC
Bob,

Any tank can be penetrated, no matter the tank, no matter the era, no matter how thick the armor. Your question is a leading question and, at best, is a fallacy. Also your appeal to authority "two tankers told me" is not any sort of basis to refute any of the counter arguments that you have ignored.


Its like asking "what soldier wants to be shot?" The obvious answer is none, just like a tanker. You continue to make your argument in a vacuum based on anecdotal evidence, certainly their experiences cant be discounted but at its core its ignoring the original intent of the M4, development cycles of new ordinance and equipment, field trials, factory change overs and training that wouldnt have allowed the Pershing to be deployed in similar numbers. So coulda, woulda, shoulda isn't a valid argument.

I'm sure, to that effect, every Sherman crew member would have preferred the M1A1 Abrams, why didnt the Army get that MBT to them in 45?!? Its criminal that our Army didn't have it until the near end of the 20th century! Or the M60 or M48...

As it has been said and ignored by many, tactics and doctrine, manufacturing, training, development and shipping during war time has to be balanced with the 'right now' needs on a parallel track with development of new weapon systems.

The airwar evolved from unescorted bombers bristling w .50 cal's to the same bombers being escorted by long range fighters. It took combined r&d between several nations to see the P-51 come to fruition and it took a bit for what is now viewed as simple technology to catch up (range, efficencies and drop tanks for instance) to allow fighters to penetrate deep into Germany to establish the air campaign.

The Navy was mired in a dreadnaught mentality up till Pearl Harbor but the old guard still resisted acknowledging naval airpower until it was proven time and again post Dec7, 1941.

Similarly the Army looked at armor completely different than the German's did and design and tactics reflected that. It wasnt a deliberate attempt at killing US crewman as some have insinuated but they did adjust on the fly and worked to develop heavy tanks while still sustaining current and future operations.

My uncle was a ball turret gunner on 17's in the 8th AF during 44 to 45. He would have preferred a B-29 with its remote stations I'm sure but it wasnt ready during that phase so was he and the rest of the 8th to have sat on their haunches and wait or proceed with the best they had (and it wasnt bad at all) to support the air war? Was it an ethical lapse to send infantry in with just steel pots or should D-Day been postponed until kevlar was invented or flak jackets?
Zildjian1819
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 09:26 AM UTC
I was’nt there ,but my 2 buddies were.
Zildjian1819
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 09:29 AM UTC
Why were they adding appliqué armor to their tanks?If we had better tanks,fewer men would’ve been lost.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 09:29 AM UTC

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How many Sherman’s were destroyed before air/ artillery support was brought to bear in the battle. Maybe the quickest way is to upgrade Sherman’s to Jumbo standards and mount a 90mm gun from the factory? Sherman was’nt obsolete, but could’ve used factory upgrades? Tankers were fitting appliqué armor in the field.That tell’s you something. My 2 Sherman tanker buddies verified that to me in 1980. Wish they were still around.My hats’ off to them.Thank’s guy’s.








Pz IV up-armoured with T-34 tracks .....





I wonder if German tankers thought that the Pz IV was obsolete? It was being up-armoured both officially and spontaneously by the crews ...

The Tiger I was also presumably obsolete since the Germans started replacing it with the King Tiger (Tiger II)
/ Robin
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 09:32 AM UTC

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And in reply to Vance.Do you want to be in that Sherman that is penetrated? If Sherman was so good, why was M-26 developed and fielded. I would like to have an equal to my enemy at least.From what I read and saw in documentaries, the field commanders were screaming for more m-26’s after seeing how good they performed. My Sherman buddies did’nt crew M-26’s so they never commented on that.



Why was the Tiger II developed and fielded? Because the Tiger I was inferior and obsolete?
I wonder what German tankers though about having to use obsolete tanks ....

Maybe they even considered using captured tanks:








Even Valentines ...






Above: Ex-French Somuas in June 1944






And, as has been said in many posts already, most or maybe even all tankers/soldiers/pilots want something better than what they have.
Charlie-66
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 09:55 AM UTC

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Now THAT is the most well thought through answer so far.
GB



Totally agree!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 10:03 AM UTC

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Why were they adding appliqué armor to their tanks?If we had better tanks,fewer men would’ve been lost.



Well,..... if the Western Allies had waited for better tanks then there would have been no tanks at all at D-Day or the whole event would have had to be postponed for one or maybe two years and by that time Stalin would have taken over all of Europe.
Maybe it would have been better to skip the tanks and build LOTS of fighter bombers to take out the German tanks and AT-guns from the air and use APC's and armoured cars to mop up the German infantry.
Oh wait, they tried that but couldn't get all of them, so we still had to have some tanks ...
18Bravo
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 10:06 AM UTC

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The US never formally recognized E. Germany



Hardly related to the topic, but the Hallstein doctrine was abandoned in the early '70s. By 1974 the US had full diplomatic relations with East Germany.



No, we did not. In Berlin we did not recognize the Authority of the DDR or it's officials.

The official speed limit in the zone (Between Helmstedt and Berlin was 100 kilometers per hour. One fine day I was riding my bike through the zone at over 100 MILES per hour. A VoPo had his car halfway buried in a revetment in a hull down position while he himself lay on the side of the road, pointing his radar sniper style at oncoming "Verbrecher."

He jumped up and ran into the middle of the roadway waving a lighted stop sign. I damn near ran his dumb @$$ over. So I stopped, (just short of killing or seriously maiming him) and he started demanding my identification. I turned around and pointed to my USA plate and said
Ich möchte mit einer Sowjetische Offizier reden,
which he clearly did not want any more than I did. He was powerless to do anything more than call the Soviet officials.
He then explained to me that here in the People's German Democratic Republic we only drive on the right hand side of the road, and we limit our speed to 100 kph. I thanked him, gunned the throttle, and left a rubber patch on the LEFT hand side of the road while he vanished in my rear view mirror.



Patrick, if that censored word began with "S" and rhymed with "Hatch" then yeah, we called it the same thing.
Zildjian1819
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 02:10 PM UTC
Yep.As far as reliability goes Sherman.And we used captured Panthers and Tigers.My 2 Sherman buddies said they would’ve liked to crew a Panther or Tiger.They had fire power and protection in mind. So... Wish they were still here.
Zildjian1819
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 02:43 PM UTC
And why does air power and artillery have to be used to knock out Panthers and Tigers? Could it be because the Sherman could’nt? So what it all boils down to is fight with what you’ve got.
Shermania
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Posted: Monday, March 09, 2020 - 03:32 PM UTC

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And why does air power and artillery have to be used to knock out Panthers and Tigers? Could it be because the Sherman could’nt? So what it all boils down to is fight with what you’ve got.




The germans used artillery and airplanes against American tanks too, it’s called combined arms tactics.

Shermans could and did kill tigers, there are many instances when a single sherman took out a tiger mano a mano. Here’s a link to a documented battle between a 75mm armed sherman and a tiger 1 and the sherman won

http://www.752tank.com/cecina.html