Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Chipping vs historical accuracy
barnslayer
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 12:34 PM UTC

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Just to be clear. I’m not in a “rage quit” and will continue to follow this thread. I’m just saying I can’t offer any more convincing evidence for the existence of “chipping“ than I already have. If one hasn’t seen chipping and knows how it occurs, it’s pointless to try and convince anyone that it actually does occur. As to Barney’s arguments about boots, I’m left perplexed how the sole of a boot can make a difference in wear on paint since It’s the repeated grinding of the dirt between the boot and the painted surface that makes the difference. So I’m not clear on the mechanism or physics of different footwear Barney has put forward Perhaps it can be explained again so I can understand the discussion? And also, my lawnmower has chips in it. Barney’s does not.
VR, Russ



Abrasion depends on both the item delivering the force and the abrasive media. A more rigid sole will exert more grinding force (and impart it's own abrasivity) onto the existing dirt into the paint. Modern equipment has both better paint and a softer boot sole material. The abrasively of dirt depends on the location regardless of the technology. If we don't see widespread paint wear on WW2 era tanks despite those factors, there should be even less in modern situations.
The only variables leaning towards increase wear in modern vehicles are longer usable life of the tank and heavier crewmen. The heavier the man the more the abrasive force, possibly negating the improved footwear!
Granted we are limited in WW2 research to a precious few viable high resolution photos to use as baseline comparison.

I'm merely saying that chipping done out of scale is just that. Chipping in unlikely areas of the tank is well.... unlikely.

We should all do whatever makes us happy with our work.

To reiterate what I said, my mower does have chipping... on the underside.
barnslayer
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 12:41 PM UTC
Does anyone remember an old issue of Fine Scale Modeler with an article about sand eroding tank paint in WW2 North Africa?
It featured a Grant (IIRC). The entire tank was primed in silver. Then it was painted appropriate desert colors. Finally the author used a Paasche air eraser to simulate wind/sand damage by exposing the silver. It was interesting to say the least but I don't recall seeing it done again.
d6mst0
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 12:48 PM UTC

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Steve Zaloga in one of his Military Modeling Magazine articles referred to excessive wreathing as akin to making vehicles look like they had been sitting outside at Aberdeen Proving Grounds for 50 plus years.

That being said didn't North African vehicles demonstrate more wear than the continental conflict?



The only German vehicles I chipped are the ones in North African and then I mostly show the top coat of paint faded away showing the base coat. Blowing sand will wear paint pretty quickly. European equipment didn't last long enough to get chipped a lot, but they sure did get dirty.

Mark
brekinapez
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 01:25 PM UTC

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What about rust on tailpipes?




That's a heat effect, independent of weathering by other means.
brekinapez
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 01:48 PM UTC

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Now folks, feet are feet, paint is paint, and dirt is dirt.



When you speak in absolutes where none exist, you lose the argument.

Anyone who works for a paint company can tell you paint is not just paint, that there are types formulated for all manner of surfaces and degrees of durability. If paint is paint why devise new formulas rather than just keep using the same one if it makes no difference? Are you attempting to say there is no difference in an industrial primer and my bottle of Vallejo acrylic?

Are the feet of a 140-lb person going to produce the same ground pressure as those of a 180-lb person?

Is terrain marked by topsoil containing multitudes of small stones and larger rocks going to have the same effect as the silty loam of a flood plain? That's about the same as saying 80-grit and 320-grit sandpapers have the same abrasive quality. And considering soil studies were part of my undergraduate degree, I am far from inclined to agree with your view on dirt.

Usually you have a lot of good things to say but that was not one.
barnslayer
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 01:50 PM UTC

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What about rust on tailpipes?




Just be careful if adding texture. Look at photos of old wrecks. The exhaust could be totally toasted but some of us (myself included) tend to overdo it.
brekinapez
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 02:02 PM UTC

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To reiterate what I said, my mower does have chipping... on the underside.



Mine as well, plus one small nick on the front apron where I got it too close to an edging stone. Mostly it is just dirty from hitting patches of open soil along the edge of my property.

My 2 1/2 ton jack, however, looks like someone tore into it with a fistful of chains for a couple of hours due to having originally lived in the bed of my uncle's pickup with a bunch of other tools thrown atop it for a decade. *take breath*
brekinapez
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 02:03 PM UTC

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What about rust on tailpipes?




Just be careful if adding texture. Look at photos of old wrecks. The exhaust could be totally toasted but some of us (myself included) tend to overdo it.



Also make sure it actually is an exhaust and not a cooling pipe, like the two outer pipes on the left-hand exhaust assembly on a mid-period Panther or Jagdpanther.
Scarred
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 04:15 PM UTC

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What about rust on tailpipes?




Just be careful if adding texture. Look at photos of old wrecks. The exhaust could be totally toasted but some of us (myself included) tend to overdo it.



Also make sure it actually is an exhaust and not a cooling pipe, like the two outer pipes on the left-hand exhaust assembly on a mid-period Panther or Jagdpanther.

Scarred
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 04:20 PM UTC

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What about rust on tailpipes?




Just be careful if adding texture. Look at photos of old wrecks. The exhaust could be totally toasted but some of us (myself included) tend to overdo it.



Also make sure it actually is an exhaust and not a cooling pipe, like the two outer pipes on the left-hand exhaust assembly on a mid-period Panther or Jagdpanther.




Exhaust pipes and mufflers can also develop holes. Water condensation from starting, rain collection and just getting wet during normal use. However, make sure the exhaust system you are rusting isn't stainless steel. Stainless won't rust but it will discolor, so you can see different metal shades on a stainless exhaust system.
Pongo_Arm
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 04:43 PM UTC

Wonder if this will show up.
Notice the bottom of boots on the crewman on the barrel. Those are hob nails. That is what most all german crewmen wore and all the troops and service personnel wore. That will chip paint. We all see this tank is brand new. Its cleats have the full tread still(people often make tanks look 20 years old but leave those crisp) the skirts are perfect the stowage is regulation. Brand new. Yet it has driven across one field and look at the mud. 1 day of battle and we know those fenders will be punched in, a skirt will be askew and the paint on it scraped. 1 week of the troops walking on the deck in hob nails and there will be chips in the paint. Or chips in damp dust that covers the whole tank. Much of the chipping done by modelers like much of everything else is over done. They are over clean or over dirty or over chipped. That is why the master pieces that capture the tone with such rational ballance stand out. But armies that used hob nails, Germans, Brits, Russians. They will have patterns of small chips in the paint.
Pongo_Arm
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 04:51 PM UTC

Hob nails. and a big paint chip.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 05:28 PM UTC

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Now folks, feet are feet, paint is paint, and dirt is dirt.



When you speak in absolutes where none exist, you lose the argument.

Anyone who works for a paint company can tell you paint is not just paint, that there are types formulated for all manner of surfaces and degrees of durability. If paint is paint why devise new formulas rather than just keep using the same one if it makes no difference? Are you attempting to say there is no difference in an industrial primer and my bottle of Vallejo acrylic?

Are the feet of a 140-lb person going to produce the same ground pressure as those of a 180-lb person?

Is terrain marked by topsoil containing multitudes of small stones and larger rocks going to have the same effect as the silty loam of a flood plain? That's about the same as saying 80-grit and 320-grit sandpapers have the same abrasive quality. And considering soil studies were part of my undergraduate degree, I am far from inclined to agree with your view on dirt.

Usually you have a lot of good things to say but that was not one.



I apologize for being facetious. I was trying to imply, in exasperation, in general terms, that footwear, regardless of type, will inevitably pick up dirt, which in turn will grind into paint, regardless of type. A point I’d tried to make several times in three other postings. To say otherwise is ridiculous. If it weren’t true, and we could figure out how to make it untrue, we’d be able to retire wealthy. I doubt that a reasonable person, even walking across loamy soil, would take off their footwear, and purposefully run the dirty sole over the hood of a new car. You must agree that sandpaper is sandpaper, and abrasive, regardless of “grit”. Sorry if I hadn’t made that clear in the previous posts. But you are right, my comment was not useful.

I believe this entire string was started with the individual poster asking if “chipping was historically correct”. He’s been given multiple answers based on opinion. Some of which have been from direct experience and even photographic proof. The discussion has since devolved into “scale effect”, a reasonable question for a modeling forum. Models are art. I’ve seen some beautiful models without any wear or “chipping” in museums, and on contest tables. And built more than a few myself, currently residing in a museum (aircraft). They represent the prototype, but not the “life” of the prototype. That static “clean” piece is just one way to depict miniature artwork. Another way is to convey a sense a occupation and use, through mediums such as “mud” “dust” “weathering” and chipping”. Can “chipping” be overdone on a model? Yes of course. But if done correctly, it can also be used in conveying a sense of movement and occupation to a static model, much the same way a 2D artist conveys mood through color, light and shade. Or as a figure painter uses various colors and shades to bring life to a 1/35 face. To say it shouldn’t be done because it’s not in “scale” overlooks the fact these machines were used, and accrued wear in their use. We work in an art form, and miniature vehicles cannot possibly be as “accurate” as the real thing. They can however, be made to look “like” or “similar” to the real thing, well beyond a simple miniature representation of the prototype. But, I guess like any other form of art, some will like it and others won’t. However, I can attest, through experience, that “chipping” is in fact, historically accurate. Which is what the original poster was asking. How he intended to portray it is unknown. As a solution, I’d propose that instead of offering opinions on wether or not chipping occurs in real life, we discuss how to accomplish “scale effect chipping” and share methods for depicting it. That way we all benefit.

As for me, I have my feet (no pun intended here] firmly planted in both camps. I have models I want to display as clean museum pieces. I also have models in which I’ve depicted a fair amount of wear, including chipping, primarily in diorama settings, to convey “life”. A clean, museum piece model does not look correct crossing a trench or rolling down a road. Depicting ”chips” really depends on a variety of factors, but for starters, I like to use a very fine pointed oooo brush to repeatedly place lighter or darker dots and random lines and shapes over and around areas where logical wear occurs. I usually use a lighter or darker acrylic paint, contrasting slightly with the original surface (color depends on the subject). I use a minimalist (less is better) approach. And yes, I too am frequently (but not always) put off when viewing a mass of indiscriminate pockmarks and scratches produced by the “hairspray” technique. Although there are some applications where that technique is acceptable (to me anyway) primarily in depicting destroyed or severely damaged vehicles, or in vehicles with whitewash overcoats, but that’s not really “chipping” is it? It’s more of a failure of one type of paint over another, or the total destruction of a painted surface through violent reaction. So those are my techniques for depicting “chipping”. It’s an art form that mimics reality. As for ”accuracy”— its good to keep in mind that models are art, not reality. An artist tries to capture that reality, that’s all.
VR, Russ
Scarred
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2020 - 07:31 PM UTC
I have this book I bought 20 plus years ago about Desert Shield. There is a picture in the book that I've looked all over the net for a digitized copy and found it once but lost it. It's a picture of a couple of Abrams, the picture looks like it was taken from infornt of the gunners hatch aimed towards the TC. You can see the top of the turret of tank and good shot of the left side of the 2nd tank. The caption said they were from 3rd ACR. Some of you must know the picture.

I bring it up because it's a case for extreme chipping. As most of you know, a lot of vehicles that were sent over were painted in woodland cammo and they painted over it with desert sand. But in a lot of cases the paint didn't adhere well and chipped severely. You can see a lot of green coming thru that sand paint. And it chips everywhere, the sides, The middle of the skirt panels. It looks like as much as 25% of the paint has chipped off. I've seen photos of M60's with the same issues. I'm sure the same thing happened in N. Africa.

TopSmith
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 04:06 AM UTC
I was a Tank Commander in Desert Storm on M60A1's. My tank was painted desert sand about a week after we arrived in the country. So I started with a fresh coat of paint of whatever quality paint it was. Buy the time we left, there were only a few paint chips. Mostly it was where the paint was worn down to the green near the driver's hatch and the loaders hatch from getting in and out of the tank. The only chipping involved where something was dropped on the surface like the end of a tow cable or where the spent 50 cal rounds hit the turret from the M85. When metal rubbed against metal the paint was worn down to the metal, not chipped.
barnslayer
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 04:14 AM UTC

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Hob nails. and a big paint chip.



I can't even imagine trying to climb on or off a tank wearing boots with hobnails and heel irons!
tnker101
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 05:21 AM UTC
I was on M1IP tanks for over 10 years, while there was wearing of paint in well travelled locations on the tank. Chipping as depicted on the models we build just wasn't present on our tracks. Sun fading and tone changes due to fuel, oil etc.. yes. Just for argument sake the M1IPs my unit had were built in the 80's and were turned in 2005-06. So they were old tracks at turn in. When I weather a kit I personally don't do chipping, just my preference.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 06:22 AM UTC

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I was a Tank Commander in Desert Storm on M60A1's. My tank was painted desert sand about a week after we arrived in the country. So I started with a fresh coat of paint of whatever quality paint it was. Buy the time we left, there were only a few paint chips. Mostly it was where the paint was worn down to the green near the driver's hatch and the loaders hatch from getting in and out of the tank. The only chipping involved where something was dropped on the surface like the end of a tow cable or where the spent 50 cal rounds hit the turret from the M85. When metal rubbed against metal the paint was worn down to the metal, not chipped.



I guess we need to define “chipping” in an artistic sense. I’d say “worn down to the metal” or worn through to a base coat encompasses the definition of “chipping” as far as the “Spanish School” and a lot of other modelers see it. That’s fine, as long as it’s confined to logical areas that “wear” more heavily than less accessed areas. “Chipping” is just another aspect of weathering. And it’s difficult to imagine a lot of “wear” depicted on a vehicle over time without some commensurate “chipping” as defined above, with a few exceptions, like modern CARC paint (although it is seen as mentioned above). Dirt and mud can accumulate within hours (really minutes) after emerging from the motor pool. “Chipping” will take much longer. Scale effect is in fact important. Certainly, a lot of chipping around crew areas is not easy to replicate in 1/72 scale, and perhaps it shouldn’t be (although our aircraft building brothers like to replicate “chips” on forward edges and props—seemingly in any scale). 1/35 armored vehicles tend to lend themselves better to “chipping” since there’s more area. And chipping should never be undertaken without commensurate wear in general, like collected dirt and fading, unless you’re depicting a freshly washed vehicle.
VR, Russ
brekinapez
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 06:43 AM UTC
Chipping occurs when something strikes another something and breaks off a small piece of it, in this case a piece of paint. You are making chips of paint. It is not 'wearing down' as that implies gradual erosion of a surface over time, such as finishes on stairway handrails from hundreds of hands sliding over it and rubbing the varnish off slowly. Even sanding with grit paper is 'wearing down' the surface as opposed to flaking off pieces of it. Sorry, I grade SAT/ACT essays part-time.

So there are actually two things going on here: chipping and wearing down of surfaces.
steel_tiger1
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 08:43 AM UTC

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Chipping occurs when something strikes another something and breaks off a small piece of it, in this case a piece of paint. You are making chips of paint. It is not 'wearing down' as that implies gradual erosion of a surface over time, such as finishes on stairway handrails from hundreds of hands sliding over it and rubbing the varnish off slowly. Even sanding with grit paper is 'wearing down' the surface as opposed to flaking off pieces of it. Sorry, I grade SAT/ACT essays part-time.

So there are actually two things going on here: chipping and wearing down of surfaces.



This! Totally this. Two different things going on being discussed as one. The desert paint is wearing down not chipped. Chips are just that. Crew climbing in and out of hatched wears the paint down doesn't chip it. WWII German pain is tough stuff if you have ever been around any original pieces with original paint. I was around the stug III they had at Ft. Knox that had just come out of a bog somewhere. It looked pretty good. Couldn't chip it with a knife, you know for for research purposes (who didn't want an original paint sample from a stug).I have a picture around somewhere I think maybe?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 09:51 AM UTC

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Chipping occurs when something strikes another something and breaks off a small piece of it, in this case a piece of paint. You are making chips of paint. It is not 'wearing down' as that implies gradual erosion of a surface over time, such as finishes on stairway handrails from hundreds of hands sliding over it and rubbing the varnish off slowly. Even sanding with grit paper is 'wearing down' the surface as opposed to flaking off pieces of it. Sorry, I grade SAT/ACT essays part-time.

So there are actually two things going on here: chipping and wearing down of surfaces.



This! Totally this. Two different things going on being discussed as one. The desert paint is wearing down not chipped. Chips are just that. Crew climbing in and out of hatched wears the paint down doesn't chip it. WWII German pain is tough stuff if you have ever been around any original pieces with original paint. I was around the stug III they had at Ft. Knox that had just come out of a bog somewhere. It looked pretty good. Couldn't chip it with a knife, you know for for research purposes (who didn't want an original paint sample from a stug).I have a picture around somewhere I think maybe?



It’s already been established in 1:1 scale this occurs. But now you are confusing the actual process of “chipping” and wear on the real thing, with the term used in modeling to depict something that LOOKS like it was “chipped” or “worn” in scale. We don’t as modelers frequently use 1:1 materials to represent wear. What we call “chipping” is normally done with a brush and paint as either an application, or a removal of paint (hairspray technique). Again, please read the previous posts above the last one, as we went from 1:1 to scale effect some time back. Which, since this is a modeling forum, is probably where it needs to be. Is it accurate to represent this in miniature? That’s the question. At least I think it is. In other words “chipping” in modeling terms, is just another word for simulating scale wear. I don’t know of another term for using model paint to simulate this wear. This is opposed to “model weathering”, which is another term implying the effects of nature, not “mechanical” wear. As modelers though, we often lump the two together.
VR, Russ
18Bravo
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 09:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Chipping occurs when something strikes another something and breaks off a small piece of it, in this case a piece of paint. You are making chips of paint. It is not 'wearing down' as that implies gradual erosion of a surface over time, such as finishes on stairway handrails from hundreds of hands sliding over it and rubbing the varnish off slowly. Even sanding with grit paper is 'wearing down' the surface as opposed to flaking off pieces of it. Sorry, I grade SAT/ACT essays part-time.

So there are actually two things going on here: chipping and wearing down of surfaces.



Well...you forgot expansion and contraction of the substrate metal, and flexing. They cause major chipping and flaking. Custom bike builders have known this for years - that's why we powder coat frames and other components these days.

Don't be too hard on those SAT kids.
brekinapez
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 11:35 AM UTC

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As modelers though, we often lump the two together.
VR, Russ



Guess I'm not a modeler then, as I separate the two in my own mind and it has nothing to do with 1:1 or scale effect or anything. Just because you lump it all together does not mean I have to.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 12:51 PM UTC

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As modelers though, we often lump the two together.
VR, Russ



Guess I'm not a modeler then, as I separate the two in my own mind and it has nothing to do with 1:1 or scale effect or anything. Just because you lump it all together does not mean I have to.



Nobody said you were not a modeler. And not a very helpful statement. If you look at the current terms being passed around in most modeling journals and on line, you’ll find this term (“chipping”) commonly accepted (and used) among many modelers for an artistic representation of how to depict mechanical wear, for lack of better terms. It’s just a reference for a technique. I think it’s what the original poster was referring to. At least that’s what several here have alluded to and pointed out when we talk about various “scale effects” treatments. But I was primarily referring to the terms “weathering” and “wear”, which can encompass all treatments to a model.
VR, Russ
janders
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 03:05 PM UTC
We call it chipping because Rinaldi popularized it and called the technique he used “hairspray chipping”. You can also do additive chipping with “sponge chipping”.

And it, yes, can create chipped edges but with a modicum of imagination can also create worn edges, rusted flakes, scratches, streaks, worn whitewash, and other patterns of mechanical and even chemical wear. You can add an abrasive and create worn patches with hairspray. You can use to to create a burnished effect on WW2 OD.

In scale is the key. In scale. Clearly Sherman’s didn’t roll across the Rhine with palm-sized chips randomly off their OD paint. But we’re there areas on the edges of the hatches and the fuel caps with tiny chips just visible in 1/35? I say yes, and you wouldn’t be wrong to have them.

No weathering is good or bad. No weathering is too much or too little. It is about the veracity of the story you convey, and whether it is possible (assuming you care about possibilities).