For years I've used blue insulating foam board as a dio base and then used Celluclay (which is paper mache) over it to form the contoured "earth" base.The problem that I've encountered is that, as the Celluclay dries it contracts and in doing so "warps" the foam base and whatever I have the foam attached to.
I'm ready to try either a different base (other than blue insulating foam board) or Celluclay to avoid this issue.
I know that there are a lot of "master" dio builders out there and would sincerely welcome your advice and suggestions as to different dio base options and techniques.
Thanks in advance!
Steve
Hosted by Darren Baker
Warping Dio Base > Time for a Change!
GreenBooRay
Joined: April 23, 2009
KitMaker: 54 posts
Armorama: 35 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 02:56 AM UTC
Dioramartin
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 1,476 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 03:51 AM UTC
If you don’t get a better suggestion why not let it all warp & then stick the result down on a flat ply board? Random landscaping 
Neo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 916 posts
Armorama: 758 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 04:22 AM UTC
Steve,
I use the pink insulation board (dont know if there's any difference, just what they always have at my H.Depot).
Then I "paint it" with a mix of: Durham's Rock Hard Water Putty and Wood Glue. The wood glue is 50/50 with the amount of water required.
I add stuff into that mix in small amounts for texture (dirt, kitty litter, tiny rocks, etc..).
It gets ROCK HARD like it says. You could drill and tap it if you wanted to.
Very dimensionally stable. I have bases that are 10-12 + years with no warping.
FYI: I build the substrate w/ the insulation close to the finish grade. The putty is only about 1/8" thick max.
That might help, dont really know...
I use the pink insulation board (dont know if there's any difference, just what they always have at my H.Depot).
Then I "paint it" with a mix of: Durham's Rock Hard Water Putty and Wood Glue. The wood glue is 50/50 with the amount of water required.
I add stuff into that mix in small amounts for texture (dirt, kitty litter, tiny rocks, etc..).
It gets ROCK HARD like it says. You could drill and tap it if you wanted to.
Very dimensionally stable. I have bases that are 10-12 + years with no warping.
FYI: I build the substrate w/ the insulation close to the finish grade. The putty is only about 1/8" thick max.
That might help, dont really know...
Grauwolf
#084
Joined: September 14, 2005
KitMaker: 2,485 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 05:00 AM UTC
I have been using blue foam forever and it has never warped.
What are you attaching the foam to?...maybe this is the part that is actually
warping causing the rest to follow.
Cheers,
What are you attaching the foam to?...maybe this is the part that is actually
warping causing the rest to follow.
Cheers,
GreenBooRay
Joined: April 23, 2009
KitMaker: 54 posts
Armorama: 35 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 12:02 PM UTC
Tim, Joe,
I normally glue all of my completed dios to a plywood base. Guess I'll need to try a bit thicker piece in the future!
Thanks,
Steve
I normally glue all of my completed dios to a plywood base. Guess I'll need to try a bit thicker piece in the future!
Thanks,
Steve
barnslayer
Joined: July 29, 2002
KitMaker: 102 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 12:59 PM UTC
The thicker the base, the more it can resist warping. If you want a guarantee I'd glue two pieces of 3/4" marine grade plywood. You can dress up the edges with molding or plain wood. Gluing hardwood trim to the ply edges will give even more rigidity. Seal all surfaces regardless of the materials you use.
Celluclay has a lot of moisture. When it dries it shrinks. I second the Durhams's Water Putty. Just make sure to create some mechanical retention in the wood.
Celluclay has a lot of moisture. When it dries it shrinks. I second the Durhams's Water Putty. Just make sure to create some mechanical retention in the wood.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 07:07 PM UTC
The simple solution to this is to stop using Celluclay, which carries a considerable amount of water, and glue your blue insulation material to either a piece of hardwood, cut to size, or to use two pieces of plywood glued together with the grain running in opposite directions. By doing so, you’ll eliminate any warpage. I also use Durhams Water Putty for sculpting ground cover, as it dries rock hard and resists retaining water. There is also another way to prevent warpage — use green styrofoam for bases and sculpting features. This material is porous, which allows most water based treatments to dry on both sides, eliminating the “pull effect” or bend which occurs as the top layer of Celluclay or putty dries out. The danger here is it will also let scenic effects like epoxy based water run through it, unless properly sealed. But, whenever I build a diorama base, I usually cut two sections of wood, glue them together with opposing grain, and that solves almost all warping.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 07:33 PM UTC
As others have said: Create as much as possible of the wanted shape of the landscape from the styrofoam and then add thin layers of putty or Celluclay on top.
An alternative is to build the whole base from Celluclay and adjust it after it has dried and warped. Use a cardboard box to give the celluclay the basic shape, let it dry, discard the cardboard box, shape the celluclay, plane they bottom and then add a base plate and sides.
I would recommend shaping as much as possible from the styrofoam, cutting & sanding and then adding a thin surfacing layer. I have seen railroad modellers make stone covered roads by scribing in dense styrofoam and painting it afterwards to get a solid surface.
Celluclay thicker than maybe 1/8th of an inch should be reconsidered, depends a little on the thickness of the styrofoam. If the styrofoam would be able to resist the contraction of the Celluclay you would have the risk of debonding instead
/ Robin
An alternative is to build the whole base from Celluclay and adjust it after it has dried and warped. Use a cardboard box to give the celluclay the basic shape, let it dry, discard the cardboard box, shape the celluclay, plane they bottom and then add a base plate and sides.
I would recommend shaping as much as possible from the styrofoam, cutting & sanding and then adding a thin surfacing layer. I have seen railroad modellers make stone covered roads by scribing in dense styrofoam and painting it afterwards to get a solid surface.
Celluclay thicker than maybe 1/8th of an inch should be reconsidered, depends a little on the thickness of the styrofoam. If the styrofoam would be able to resist the contraction of the Celluclay you would have the risk of debonding instead
/ Robin
Chepster
Joined: February 28, 2018
KitMaker: 38 posts
Armorama: 36 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 07:56 PM UTC
I hope no one minds me taking this discussion off at a little angle. Over the years I've used ModRoc over foam to build bases, mainly because I picked up a load cheap many years ago but it's now been affected by moisture so on the lookout for alternatives.
As far as I can tell Celluclay is just pre-packed paper-mache. Is there a particular reason not to just use home-made paper-mache?
As far as I can tell Celluclay is just pre-packed paper-mache. Is there a particular reason not to just use home-made paper-mache?
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 08:42 PM UTC
Ummm, well theoretically you could use your home made papier-maché, similar to peeling and slicing your own potatoes, baking from flour and basic ingredients, mixing your own washes for weathering.
It's all a matter of taste and how much effort you are prepared to put into the project. Some people make their own soap, make their own pasta, catch their own fish, grown their own potatoes et.c and some go to the shop and grab a bag of fish'n'chips on the way home
I wonder if someone sells pre-tinted Celluclay, Normandy, North Africa, Russian steppe, Stalingrad, Poland, Eastern Germany, Netherlands, Pacific, .. ?
Similar to sets of dry powder pigments made to suit different war theaters ...
Short answer: Of course you can. It's just glue and mashed up newspapers/ads-leaflets. Skip the glossy papers, they're just too much trouble, go for the cheap newspapers and ads-leaflets. The fish'n'chips wrappings contain too much fat/grease which could cause problems later, don't want your dio to smell like fish'n'chips, could attract bugs and stuff ...
Cheers / Robin
It's all a matter of taste and how much effort you are prepared to put into the project. Some people make their own soap, make their own pasta, catch their own fish, grown their own potatoes et.c and some go to the shop and grab a bag of fish'n'chips on the way home
I wonder if someone sells pre-tinted Celluclay, Normandy, North Africa, Russian steppe, Stalingrad, Poland, Eastern Germany, Netherlands, Pacific, .. ?
Similar to sets of dry powder pigments made to suit different war theaters ...
Short answer: Of course you can. It's just glue and mashed up newspapers/ads-leaflets. Skip the glossy papers, they're just too much trouble, go for the cheap newspapers and ads-leaflets. The fish'n'chips wrappings contain too much fat/grease which could cause problems later, don't want your dio to smell like fish'n'chips, could attract bugs and stuff ...
Cheers / Robin
Chepster
Joined: February 28, 2018
KitMaker: 38 posts
Armorama: 36 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 09:13 PM UTC
Thank you Robin; I thought it may just come down to convenience.
Theatre specific pre-coloured Celluclay (or similar) is a good idea but I suppose it could equally be achieved with artists watercolours being added to the mix?
I'm struggling to find Celluclay in the UK.
Theatre specific pre-coloured Celluclay (or similar) is a good idea but I suppose it could equally be achieved with artists watercolours being added to the mix?
I'm struggling to find Celluclay in the UK.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 10:09 PM UTC
Of course you can add watercolours or acrylics to the papier-maché 
Paper is free so you only need to pay for the glue.
Glue for wallpaper, the type you mix from powder, can be used for this.
/ Robin
Paper is free so you only need to pay for the glue.
Glue for wallpaper, the type you mix from powder, can be used for this.
/ Robin
Chepster
Joined: February 28, 2018
KitMaker: 38 posts
Armorama: 36 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 10:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Of course you can add watercolours or acrylics to the papier-maché
Paper is free so you only need to pay for the glue.
Glue for wallpaper, the type you mix from powder, can be used for this.
/ Robin
I think this year may be a year of modelling changes for me inspired by this and a local forum. Moved to using acrylics from Humbrol enamels, just started using an airbrush and compressor - might as well add a new base medium to the list!!
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 10:32 PM UTC
My only regret with starting to use an airbrush is that I didn't do it earlier
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 11:35 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you Robin; I thought it may just come down to convenience.
Theatre specific pre-coloured Celluclay (or similar) is a good idea but I suppose it could equally be achieved with artists watercolours being added to the mix?
I'm struggling to find Celluclay in the UK.
I was going to suggest Homecrafts. co.uk but they have closed for business. a Google search came up with this on Amazon
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ACTIVA-CelluClay-Instant-Paper-Mache-1lb-Bright/dp/B001144SDE
It really is glorified papermache from what I can see so news paper and wallpaper paste or white glue thinned in water and your away.
In my "day job" in design and construction if covering a surface with something that will "pull" on the surface, such as laminate on a worktop, then we place a "balancer" on the other side to equal out the tension. It's probably not possible in this case so a suitable thick base and trying not to get it wet - especially if its MDF or chipboard will help.
Its the same if you use foamboard to make buildings etc in a diorama. If you apply something to one side, paint, plaster, clay etc that will pull on the surface as it dries so you'll need to "balance" the reverse side with something equal or with bracing to prevent it warping.
Oh and Robin, we stopped wrapping Fish n Chips in newspaper years ago,the old H&S put a stop to all that. Much nicer in plastic....well that's what they thought
Chepster
Joined: February 28, 2018
KitMaker: 38 posts
Armorama: 36 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 01:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThank you Robin; I thought it may just come down to convenience.
Theatre specific pre-coloured Celluclay (or similar) is a good idea but I suppose it could equally be achieved with artists watercolours being added to the mix?
I'm struggling to find Celluclay in the UK.
I was going to suggest Homecrafts. co.uk but they have closed for business. a Google search came up with this on Amazon
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ACTIVA-CelluClay-Instant-Paper-Mache-1lb-Bright/dp/B001144SDE
It really is glorified papermache from what I can see so news paper and wallpaper paste or white glue thinned in water and your away.
In my "day job" in design and construction if covering a surface with something that will "pull" on the surface, such as laminate on a worktop, then we place a "balancer" on the other side to equal out the tension. It's probably not possible in this case so a suitable thick base and trying not to get it wet - especially if its MDF or chipboard will help.
Its the same if you use foamboard to make buildings etc in a diorama. If you apply something to one side, paint, plaster, clay etc that will pull on the surface as it dries so you'll need to "balance" the reverse side with something equal or with bracing to prevent it warping.
Oh and Robin, we stopped wrapping Fish n Chips in newspaper years ago,the old H&S put a stop to all that. Much nicer in plastic....well that's what they thought
I have learnt that it helps if one spells the product name correctly when searching Google
Sorry for wasting your time saying I couldn't find it! 
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 01:36 AM UTC
Just one other comment on Celluclay, and paper mache’ products in general. It’s largely paper, with a glue additive usually made of a starchy component which prevents it from falling apart over time. Therefore, it’s prone to absorb water from the air. Over time, it can become moldy for this reason, especially in damp climates. This is another reason I gave up Celluclay years ago. There’s nothing as frustrating as building a nice diorama, putting it on a shelf, and coming back weeks later to find a nice green coating of mold growing over the landscape, sometimes accompanied by a layer of black mold spores too on the edges. Yuck. As for “backing” material, I think this is what I said above, when I suggested using wood as a base. But wood will also warp, even thick wood, if not handled properly. Therefore, when building a quality base, one should always use two sheets of opposing grain wood glued (or screwed, but glued is best) as a non-warping base. This is what many woodworkers do to minimize warp in furniture building, especially for long runs of wood— say over a foot long. I’ve built many model ship and other display bases out of wood this way. And quite a few longer dioramas (up to three feet) without any warpage, that have lasted years. However, again, you can use thick green styrofoam (2”-3”deep or more) and Durhams water putty just abut The same way, without backing.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 02:51 AM UTC
Hi
I don't think Durhams Water Putty is available in the UK. another option is good old Polyfilla, or the equivalent laid over whatever you use to build up your terrain, polystyrene, cardboard, etc. Mix in some cheap acrylic paint from somewhere like The Works to colour it a suitable earth colour before applying.
I don't think Durhams Water Putty is available in the UK. another option is good old Polyfilla, or the equivalent laid over whatever you use to build up your terrain, polystyrene, cardboard, etc. Mix in some cheap acrylic paint from somewhere like The Works to colour it a suitable earth colour before applying.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 02:56 AM UTC
Model railroaders sometimes use home-made papier-mache (newspaper strips) for building scenery, but they build a shell over a form, usually made from metal screening, or chicken wire. That works well for big hills and mountains. Celluclay (also available under different names) works better and is easier formed for smaller dios. As for mould, if you apply it too thick it will take forever to dry (if at all!), and will form mould in the meantime - that's my learning experience! If you apply to a wood base that is too thin it will cause the wood to warp. As the Celluclay dries it usually lifts around the edges - just mix up another bit of Celluclay, or use some left-over, to fill the edge gaps. It's also a good idea to pre-color the Celluclay mix - if you ever get a chipped surface later you won't have the lighter interior color showing through!
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 03:28 AM UTC
Plaster is another option, can also be precoloured.
Adding a few drops of vinegar to the mixture prolongs the
time before it starts setting. Non-organic so mould should not be an issue. Since it hardens by a chemical process the water is bound in the plaster and there is no issues with drying. Wet stuff on thin wood or fibreboard will cause warping, applying water to the reverse side can sometimes keep things straight.
Plaster is heavy so thin layers over a basic shape is recommended.
When I glue down veneer I wet the other side as well to keep it straight.
Plaster can be lightened by mixing in sawdust, this adds an organic component so residents in Washinton state should not try this. Wet the sawdust first to make mixing easier, otherwise it will "steal" the water from the plaster and interfere with the hardening.
Grout, tile adhesive and similar products could also be used with sawdust.
Here in Sweden we have a hardening putty, cementbased, which can be sanded, drilled, cut et.c. when it has hardened. One slightly flexible and one type which is harder.
Build the shape with styrofoam and use coloured plaster to create surface texture
/ Robin
Adding a few drops of vinegar to the mixture prolongs the
time before it starts setting. Non-organic so mould should not be an issue. Since it hardens by a chemical process the water is bound in the plaster and there is no issues with drying. Wet stuff on thin wood or fibreboard will cause warping, applying water to the reverse side can sometimes keep things straight.
Plaster is heavy so thin layers over a basic shape is recommended.
When I glue down veneer I wet the other side as well to keep it straight.
Plaster can be lightened by mixing in sawdust, this adds an organic component so residents in Washinton state should not try this. Wet the sawdust first to make mixing easier, otherwise it will "steal" the water from the plaster and interfere with the hardening.
Grout, tile adhesive and similar products could also be used with sawdust.
Here in Sweden we have a hardening putty, cementbased, which can be sanded, drilled, cut et.c. when it has hardened. One slightly flexible and one type which is harder.
Build the shape with styrofoam and use coloured plaster to create surface texture
/ Robin
Jberardi
Joined: July 10, 2007
KitMaker: 95 posts
Armorama: 88 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 04:43 AM UTC
I can also endorse Durham's Water Putty. I used Celluclay for a while and had the same problem with warping and the groundwork pulling away from the edge of the base. No such problem with the Durham's. I too add rocks,sand,etc. to the putty to give it a more detailed texture.
GreenBooRay
Joined: April 23, 2009
KitMaker: 54 posts
Armorama: 35 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 04:56 AM UTC
Thanks all (that would be "y'all" or "all y'all" here in Texas)!
Going to try Durham's Water Putty for my next dio base.... plus, I have gleaned a lot of excellent ideas from everyone's input.
Thanks again .... gents. Been modeling off and on for over 60 years and still learnin'!
Steve
Going to try Durham's Water Putty for my next dio base.... plus, I have gleaned a lot of excellent ideas from everyone's input.
Thanks again .... gents. Been modeling off and on for over 60 years and still learnin'!
Steve
barnslayer
Joined: July 29, 2002
KitMaker: 102 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 05:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I hope no one minds me taking this discussion off at a little angle. Over the years I've used ModRoc over foam to build bases, mainly because I picked up a load cheap many years ago but it's now been affected by moisture so on the lookout for alternatives.
As far as I can tell Celluclay is just pre-packed paper-mache. Is there a particular reason not to just use home-made paper-mache?
The difference is Celluclay is almost a powder. Just add water. Traditional paper mâché is made of newspaper strips. The former is just more convenient then the latter. This is not an endorsement. I gave it up a long time ago.
Grauwolf
#084
Joined: September 14, 2005
KitMaker: 2,485 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 07:04 AM UTC
Since we are discussing in part Celluclay, how does it compare to Sculptamold?
Is Sculptamold a better product or is it the same as Celluclay?
Thanks,
Is Sculptamold a better product or is it the same as Celluclay?
Thanks,
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, May 11, 2020 - 10:19 AM UTC
I'd put my money on Sculptamold being the more suitable product for our purposes. Hardens more like plaster instead of drying like papier-maché.
The marketing hype says that it doesn't shrink which sounds like a big advantage compared to CelluClay
The marketing hype says that it doesn't shrink which sounds like a big advantage compared to CelluClay
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