Quoted Text
I wouldn't even assume that Befehlstigers had only one single layout.
David
Blimey, I bet you're the life and soul of the party.....
Hosted by Darren Baker
TIGER I (Late) – PROJECT: NORMANDY CAMPAIGN
Khouli
Joined: March 13, 2020
KitMaker: 68 posts
Armorama: 68 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 01:53 AM UTC
Blimey, I bet you're the life and soul of the party.....
Removed by original poster on 05/14/20 - 13:55:43 (GMT).
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 02:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Blimey, I bet you're the life and soul of the party.....
Why would I be at a party?
Doubledude
Joined: December 27, 2018
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 02:48 AM UTC
Hi folks.
Sorry for being away for so long but I was knocked out by a tooth of mine that battled hard with me. Only the root of the tooth lost the battle.
First of all I'd like to say thank you for all information provided and I as I can see you put so much effort in it to answer my questions. Thank you big time!
What makes me smile is the fact that many of you guys like the idea of the Normandy campaign and would gladly join it.
I've been to Normandy three times yet and it's always worth the trip to discover little by little a little more. I wish I'd seen the suggested video of Wittmann's 007 before I went there in 2019. That year I made a trip to find the spot where 007 was destroyed. I was at that very field near Caen without knowing the accurate position. So I took some pictures in all directions as there is no plate to tell you anything. Accidentally, when I decided to take the "dirt roads", a couple of hundred meters north east, in the south of the village of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil, I found a memorial of "Operation Totalize" with a map to it that indicated where the German Tiger tanks were destroyed. Sadly I haven't found a map of 1944 overlapping one of today to determin the accurate position.
I can imagine that it's almost impossible to get detailled information about a tank and all it's versions, when only 7 out of about 1350 tanks still remain.
So let's see, if I can find the picture that says that it's #214.
Doubledude
Joined: December 27, 2018
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 02:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey Mirco,
for a second I thought you suggest a Tiger Normandy Built Campaign on this Side...I would join that in a second.
While I can't help with any of your questions, I can help you out with another Rye Field Interior. I love the Rye Field Kits for the outside Details but never use the inner Life.
Best,
Stephan
Hi Stephan! Yes, that sounds great if you can supply the interior for 5015. Let's talk about it!
Greetings!
Doubledude
Joined: December 27, 2018
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 03:09 AM UTC
Hi Steve.
Here's the picture of tank 214. I found it on the internet with the note "for discussion only" but it is exactly the same picture as in the book "Tiger I on the Westfront" by Jean Restayn.
The note to the picture in the book says:
"Tiger 214 (Rottenführer Warmbrunn) destroyed on 27th June 1944 by a British 75 mm shell. The body of the soldier is not that of a crew member."
What happend to the crew the book didn't say. I have no idea if there's any other picture of this tank from a different point of view.
I don't konw how to load up pictures here...
Here's the linke to this picture:
https://www.argunners.com/the-tiger-i-tiger-ii-tank-in-42-top-images/
it's the fourth picture if you scroll down. The note says it's taken one day later (28th June 1944) at Rauray.
This picture is even little bigger than the one in my book, so you can see one of the road wheels that indicates that it's a late one. The front part where the shackels attached to look different - it's a straight line just like with the mid production tanks. I can't see no turret number #214 here.
As happy as I am that I wasn't able to load up pictures here, so I stumbled across a bigger version of this very picture to find out it's probably a late Tiger I.
Sadly Dragon's 6253 doesn't supply the necessary parts needed for this strange combination. The parts F1 / F2 is the regular late version of the hull sides.
Now it's your turn folks. What do you think?
(Yes, as you can see I kept editing this post and I managed it to add the picture I found on the internet here too. It's not mine and supposed to be here for discussion only.)
-------------------------------------------
Here's the picture of tank 214. I found it on the internet with the note "for discussion only" but it is exactly the same picture as in the book "Tiger I on the Westfront" by Jean Restayn.
The note to the picture in the book says:
"Tiger 214 (Rottenführer Warmbrunn) destroyed on 27th June 1944 by a British 75 mm shell. The body of the soldier is not that of a crew member."
What happend to the crew the book didn't say. I have no idea if there's any other picture of this tank from a different point of view.
I don't konw how to load up pictures here...
Here's the linke to this picture:
https://www.argunners.com/the-tiger-i-tiger-ii-tank-in-42-top-images/
it's the fourth picture if you scroll down. The note says it's taken one day later (28th June 1944) at Rauray.
This picture is even little bigger than the one in my book, so you can see one of the road wheels that indicates that it's a late one. The front part where the shackels attached to look different - it's a straight line just like with the mid production tanks. I can't see no turret number #214 here.
As happy as I am that I wasn't able to load up pictures here, so I stumbled across a bigger version of this very picture to find out it's probably a late Tiger I.
Sadly Dragon's 6253 doesn't supply the necessary parts needed for this strange combination. The parts F1 / F2 is the regular late version of the hull sides.
Now it's your turn folks. What do you think?
(Yes, as you can see I kept editing this post and I managed it to add the picture I found on the internet here too. It's not mine and supposed to be here for discussion only.)
-------------------------------------------
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 04:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI wouldn't even assume that Befehlstigers had only one single layout.
David
Blimey, I bet you're the life and soul of the party.....
I shouldn't worry. True to form.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 06:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Now it's your turn folks. What do you think?
The private website TIIF.DE has been sorting Tiger photos for years.
They reckon this one is 233.
As for 214, they have three photos of it. It had;
Steel wheels
Front hull cutouts
A spare track pole across the lower hull front
The 40mm turret roof
No "Pilze"
The large muzzle brake
The reworked hinge on the escape hatch (one bolt removed)
In other words, 214 was from near the beginning of the Late batch.
David
Doubledude
Joined: December 27, 2018
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 11:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Now it's your turn folks. What do you think?
The private website TIIF.DE has been sorting Tiger photos for years.
They reckon this one is 233.
As for 214, they have three photos of it. It had;
Steel wheels
Front hull cutouts
A spare track pole across the lower hull front
The 40mm turret roof
No "Pilze"
The large muzzle brake
The reworked hinge on the escape hatch (one bolt removed)
In other words, 214 was from near the beginning of the Late batch.
David
Thank you David. That answers my question about #214 and proofs that the book is wrong!
Brigandine
Joined: July 12, 2006
KitMaker: 553 posts
Armorama: 312 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 12:55 PM UTC
Quoted Text
2. As you can see on certain pictures, the Tiger I turrets received 2 kinds of Zimmerit. One with the same Zimmerit width as the hull and another one with wider Zimmerit pattern on the turret sides. Why is it so? Was it a change during the production run which you can date back to a certain date or was it just put on simultaneously in one and the same factory.
There's never one easy answer to cover why such differences could arise on mass-produced equipment, but a likely explanation is simply that a turret produced earlier or later than the hull, was mated to that hull at the end of the assembly line: this is from Tom Jentz & Hilary Doyle Kingtiger Heavy Tank 1942-45 (Osprey New Vanguard 1):
Quoted Text
In some cases, several months elapsed between the first appearance of a modification and the time that it was present on all new production Tiger IIs. This was due to 'last-in, first-out' tendencies. This was caused by the storage of a shipment of newer parts which covered, buried or made inaccessible the stockpile of older parts....The Tiger II (Fgst. Nr. 280101, produced in July 1944)...has turret number 280110 which was mounted close to the correct sequence. However, the Tiger II (Fgst. Nr 280243, produced in September 1944...has turret number 280093, which should have been mounted on a Tiger II produced three months earlier. (No, it wasn't changed after capture, the correct numbers are on the original turret serial number plate. (page 18)
Khouli
Joined: March 13, 2020
KitMaker: 68 posts
Armorama: 68 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 05:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextI wouldn't even assume that Befehlstigers had only one single layout.
David
Blimey, I bet you're the life and soul of the party.....
I shouldn't worry. True to form.
Every forum has at least one I suppose. Pity really....
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 07:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Every forum has at least one I suppose. Pity really....
Have you the courage to say one what ?
Because it's not polite in a shared conversatoin to lock some people out from your message.
David
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 08:59 PM UTC
Gentlemen, be polite,
please.
I may decide to trim/prune this thread if it goes further off the rails
/ Robin
please.
I may decide to trim/prune this thread if it goes further off the rails
/ Robin
Khouli
Joined: March 13, 2020
KitMaker: 68 posts
Armorama: 68 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 09:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Gentlemen, be polite,
please.
I may decide to trim/prune this thread if it goes further off the rails
/ Robin
I would anyway, there's a certain amount of deliberate belligerence going on!
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 10:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I would anyway, there's a certain amount of deliberate belligerence going on!
...says the first person to post an off-topic insult.
To claim that parts are from "007" is a huge claim, and it increases their price by a factor of probably five. I think anyone who makes that claim, or passes it on from someone else, should be subject to questioning.
And asking questions about the Tiger parts is within the topic of this thread.
David
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 11:25 PM UTC
Doubledude
Joined: December 27, 2018
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 12:02 AM UTC
Hey guys!
I simple asked for help here. And I think, most of you were with me. The last thing I wanted was to kick-start bad blood, especially when it gets personal.
I fully understand that people ask for evidence to proof what they said.
This war ended 75 years ago and even though the Tiger I still remains a legend, some answers about this legend we'll never get. It is sad but true but that's what happens when things go down in history so long ago.
I for one don't know it any better, that's why I came to you because I can't buy and read all the books on the market.
I don't want this here to be deleted only because there are two opinions. It'll always be like this and even more.
I still appreciate any kind of help. Just don't get mad.
Thank you!
Johnnych01
Joined: June 29, 2019
KitMaker: 604 posts
Armorama: 506 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 01:01 AM UTC
I for one am glad you did ask the question Mirco, as the info which is returned by people in the know is always useful either now or in the future.
I still think you should turn this into a real campaign build Mirco ...
I still think you should turn this into a real campaign build Mirco ...
Sean50
Joined: March 20, 2007
KitMaker: 340 posts
Armorama: 328 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 02:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
I would anyway, there's a certain amount of deliberate belligerence going on!
...says the first person to post an off-topic insult.
To claim that parts are from "007" is a huge claim, and it increases their price by a factor of probably five. I think anyone who makes that claim, or passes it on from someone else, should be subject to questioning.
And asking questions about the Tiger parts is within the topic of this thread.
David
Hello there
As a (relative) local here are a couple of thoughts on this.
David is absolutely correct in that there is nothing whatsoever to prove the plate is from 007 beyond word ofthe farmer (Michel Samson)
Michel sadly died a few years ago from liver cancer. He and his father before him rented the farm where they lived in Cintheaux and rented feild sto work, including the one where the Tigers were knocked out on 8th August
The claim that the plate is from 007 is based on where it was found, ie where 007 was lost which is a fair way from any other Tiger. The plate being missing in "the" photo of 007 would support the claim I think. The other Tigers all retained their turrets of course.
Michel never, to my knowledge, had any intent to sell the plate or any other part of his collection. It was all found by his father and himself and as such was part of their history and "belonged" on the farm.
Shortly after Michel's death, his widow passed away. WHilst quite ill she had been approached at Michel's funeral by collectors (or their agents) looking to buy things (nice, eh?)
The claim of the plate beloinging to 007 goes back to the 80s at least, long before the WIttmann fan-base which now exists, thus lessening any "financial" motivation.
Michel was a decent, straight-up and honest chap, who I don't believe would fabricate anything.
As for the doucmentary mentioned, it's a perfect case study in finding evidence to fit a pre-conceived scenario whilst ignoring evidence which would counter the same.
Cheers from sunny Normandy
Sean
Doubledude
Joined: December 27, 2018
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 05:50 AM UTC
@ David Byrden
Hi David.
First of all I love your website. I did a lot of research and comparison of Tiger I model kits and have to say the your site helped me most, even though I already had a lot of Dragon's 6352 kits!
Sadly there was no information about sPzAbt. 101 to find yet, so it became a dead end, now and then.
Maybe one fine day you get enough material to add 101 to your site.
Once I thought of building the Tiger I at La Romola (Italy) as it was a very late one but I lacked information too, so I dismissed this idea real quick.
Keep this up!
Hi David.
First of all I love your website. I did a lot of research and comparison of Tiger I model kits and have to say the your site helped me most, even though I already had a lot of Dragon's 6352 kits!
Sadly there was no information about sPzAbt. 101 to find yet, so it became a dead end, now and then.
Maybe one fine day you get enough material to add 101 to your site.
Once I thought of building the Tiger I at La Romola (Italy) as it was a very late one but I lacked information too, so I dismissed this idea real quick.
Keep this up!
Pongo_Arm
Joined: January 27, 2017
KitMaker: 147 posts
Armorama: 147 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 06:37 AM UTC
Wittmans arc in Normandy is interesting.
Charges into an incredibly poorly deployed unit at Villers Bocage and achieves a result all out of proportion to the abilities of his vehicle and people rave about that for 70 years.
Then a few weeks later, attacks like the commonwealth troops had to do, over open ground and runs across a few battle hardened and well deployed commonwealth units and gets his whole platoon of tigers wiped out by "inferior" Shermans at no cost to the Shermans. But his demise is not legendary. And the real lesson of the two book ends to his career in Normandy and what they say about tank warfare in the later part of WW2 are not learned.
Doubledude
Joined: December 27, 2018
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 06:48 AM UTC
Hey folks,
let's get back to question no. 3.
There was one point hidden in between that was over looked. I asked what color the turret numbers had of each of 101s companies.
For instance (that's what the instruction of Dragon's 6253 suggests:
The 3 HQ tanks:
#007 complete white numbers on both sides and the turret box.
#008 ?
#009 Dragon offers greyish numbers with white outlines for all sides and rear.
1. company:
Dragon ain't specific with these 14 tanks. You can choose between white outlined numbers and these greyish colored numbers with white outlines but it doesn't say anything else.
2. company:
Red numbers with white outlines on all sides with the option of solid red numbers for the turret bins.
3. company:
Not listed with no color information.
Does anybody know?
Doubledude
Joined: December 27, 2018
KitMaker: 15 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 07:11 AM UTC
Hi Greg!
How ya doin'? Is this an aerial photo of Wittmann's 007?
In case if it must be taken later as the turret seems to be gone from behind the tank.
This farm is gone and today there's the highway N158 and parallel to it, on the rhs, is the road D183A. Both didn'd exist in 1944. That's why I have trouble to compair both maps - today's and the one of 1944.
It's also kinda strange that only one picture of the knocked out tank of this feared and famous tank commander was taken.
Were the Canadians and Briths actually aware of what tank they killed that day?
How ya doin'? Is this an aerial photo of Wittmann's 007?
In case if it must be taken later as the turret seems to be gone from behind the tank.
This farm is gone and today there's the highway N158 and parallel to it, on the rhs, is the road D183A. Both didn'd exist in 1944. That's why I have trouble to compair both maps - today's and the one of 1944.
It's also kinda strange that only one picture of the knocked out tank of this feared and famous tank commander was taken.
Were the Canadians and Briths actually aware of what tank they killed that day?
Sean50
Joined: March 20, 2007
KitMaker: 340 posts
Armorama: 328 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 07:29 AM UTC
Hello there
The aerial photo was taken the next day (9th August). The turret is beside the hill, thd latter being moved later but before the Var in photo.
At the time I doubt any Commonwealth tankie near Cintheaux had heard of Wittmann.
The aerial photo was taken the next day (9th August). The turret is beside the hill, thd latter being moved later but before the Var in photo.
At the time I doubt any Commonwealth tankie near Cintheaux had heard of Wittmann.
ahandykindaguy
Joined: August 20, 2008
KitMaker: 1,295 posts
Armorama: 1,191 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 10:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Love it Robin! Snip it! Love it!
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.