I’ve shared two from my Combat Arms, CAV days. But what a lot of folks don’t know about me is that I finished out a good portion of my Army Career as a Nuclear, Chemical and Biological Defense Officer, in a good many assignments working with live Chemical agents. And I have a particularly interesting resume, in which I served in assignments with the Air Force (three years at NORAD & USSPACECOM), a tour at the Naval War College, and in some interesting test assignments with the Marines. I have two stories that are related to that part of my career.
The first involves the Chem lab at Dugway Proving Ground. I once worked with a civilian chemist who was doing research on the chemical protective ability of various styles of waterproof footwear, otherwise known as the multi-purpose overshoe (MULO). We tested types from Canada, Germany and the US. The chem labs at Dugway date from the 50s, but the hot-cold environment of the high desert had played havoc with the facilities over the years, allowing many outside critters to enter the building. The chemist I worked with had his lab in an older part of the facility. His preferred attire was a pair of shabby tennis shoes, jeans and a T-shirt under his lab coat. We were hosting a high level group from Natick Labs when a large white scorpion scooted out from under a counter across the aisle from about ten “Easterners”. There was immediate panic, and my Chemist friend used his shabby tennis shoes to try and herd” the scorpion into a glass beaker to keep as a specimen. It wasn’t until the scorpion scooted underneath an adjoining cabinet that we noted the Chemist had large tears in his shoes, and no socks on his feet. The Easterners were shocked, and one of them mentioned “I would be bad to be stung by a scorpion in a Chemical Research facility!” From that point on, the chemist only wore leather shoes.
I’ll give you all another installment of “living with chemistry” tomorrow.
VR, Russ
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Military Mishaps or adventures with the Army
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 27, 2020 - 02:34 PM UTC
Bodeen
#026
Joined: June 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,744 posts
Armorama: 1,359 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2020 - 02:52 PM UTC
I was stationed around the town of Pirmasens in the Pfalz. One night some enterprising GIs "borrowed" a jeep from the motor pool and drove to a house of ill repute called Club 1. Someone reported this to the MPs and the evil doers were apprehended and landed in a detention cell. The Company Commander had to go to Pirmasens and sign them out. They could have faced all kinds of punishment. The CO decided not to use UCMJ but instead forced the 4 offenders to push the jeep around the entire kaserne, with him steering, every day for a week. Everyone in the company who wasn't working had to stand outside and watch. It was a hard punishment but not as bad as a court martial or Article 15.
Bodeen
#026
Joined: June 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,744 posts
Armorama: 1,359 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2020 - 02:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I’ve shared two from my Combat Arms, CAV days. But what a lot of folks don’t know about me is that I finished out a good portion of my Army Career as a Nuclear, Chemical and Biological Defense Officer, in a good many assignments working with live Chemical agents. And I have a particularly interesting resume, in which I served in assignments with the Air Force (three years at NORAD & USSPACECOM), a tour at the Naval War College, and in some interesting test assignments with the Marines. I have two stories that are related to that part of my career.
The first involves the Chem lab at Dugway Proving Ground. I once worked with a civilian chemist who was doing research on the chemical protective ability of various styles of waterproof footwear, otherwise known as the multi-purpose overshoe (MULO). We tested types from Canada, Germany and the US. The chem labs at Dugway date from the 50s, but the hot-cold environment of the high desert had played havoc with the facilities over the years, allowing many outside critters to enter the building. The chemist I worked with had his lab in an older part of the facility. His preferred attire was a pair of shabby tennis shoes, jeans and a T-shirt under his lab coat. We were hosting a high level group From Natick Labs when a large white scorpion scooted out from under a counter across the aisle from about ten “easterners”. There was immediate panic, and my Chemist friend used his shabby tennis shoes to try and herd” the scorpion into a glass beaker to keep as a specimen. It wasn’t until the scorpion scooted underneath an adjoining cabinet that we noted the Chemist had large tears in his shoes, and no socks on his feet.
I’ll give you all another installment of “living with chemistry” tomorrow.
VR, Russ
I was stationed at NATO Site 59 in Clausen, Germany. We had the only (known) Chemical munitions in Europe. I could tell some stories about that place.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2020 - 03:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I was a 2LT Artillery Officer stationed in Baumholder, West Germany in the early '70s. As the junior officer in the Battery I was the FO, and on the hill one very windy day observing fire and adjusting for our battery.
I was adjusting on a particular target which was located on a low ridge which was in front of a much higher ride. At that time practice was to use two guns to adjust, and the FO was required to report "Rounds Observed" after every volley. Until that was reported the guns were not to be touched so that IF there was a problem, where the gun was ACTUALLY laid when fired could be determined.
This day was VERY windy (a straight in the face wind) and it also happened that the Gun Target Line) was directly over my head and right into the wind. My first set of rounds dropped BETWEEN the two ridge lines and because of the wind, I didn't actually SEE two rounds go off, but saw some smoke from behind the ridge line so I reported "Rounds Observed".
I had ALSO noticed a very peculiar sound or "whooshing" noise just before I observed the smoke. I turned around to ask my Recon SGT what that noise was, and he said, "Sir, that sounded like a round tumbling."
I made my adjustment and two more rounds hit, this time on the front side of the first ridge and reported "Rounds observed" and was just about to make my correction when everything went crazy!
First, some soldiers who had been doing some exercise in the woods about 200 meters behind me came up the my jeep and asked if I was adjusting artillery, and stated they thought that something had "fallen off" one of my rounds between them and me, behind my jeep.
Next a crowd of soldiers came streaming up from the bottom of the hill where I was from a mortar emplacement at the foot of the OP where they had been set up and stated that there had been a very large explosion about 300 meters in front of where they had been set up (and in a blind spot for me).
And then Range Control came on the radio with the dreaded "Cease Fire and Freeze!" because there had been a round shot out of safe.
What had happened was that ONE of my first two rounds had actually hit about 100 meters BEHIND my jeep, but had come in FLAT, not steep enough to cause the fuze to function, dug a long furrow twisting slightly to the right and then continued on "wobbling slightly" (thus the whooshing sound) and continued on to detonated at the bottom of the hill in front of the mortar position.
Because I had reported rounds observed, there was no longer any way to KNOW where the gun was when shot, and ultimately it was attributed to a combination of "old powder" (it was from WW II) and a very strong head wind. The usual Hundred Mil Quadrant Error was ruled out. And nobody lost their job that day. (Including the Safety Officer who went on to become a 2-Star.)
ACTUAL Cause? One gun had set in the announced Quadrant for the volley, but NOT RAISED the tube from Loading Elevation and nobody checked to see if the bubbles were level.
Could have been a whole lot worse!!!
In I-Corp, 68 we shot lots and lots of H&I's every night. Usually 300+ rounds with a cut off of 350 rounds that brought in a second howitzer. There was no hurry as the faster you shot only led to shooting them all over again. Still we usually shot the same targets four or five times anyway. Kinda boring, but you only had to do it once every six days. The H&I gun didn't shoot fire missions unless it was a zone sweep or a contact fire mission.
We usually used that time to cross train new guys. I had a kid between the trails loading that was a complete nervous wreck. The guy on the rammer staff was old, so his hands were safe. I stood outside the trail to give him some elbow room. As I said no hurry involved here. I explained that he was the key to making the system work, and all eyes were upon him. Probably a mistake! The AG was our regular AG, but I often took his place when his shoulder got tired. The Chief was handling the powder bags, and he was a dud on a good day. The kid loads the round and puts his hands over his ears (a sign telling the AG he was ready to fire), and Randy pulls the lanyard. It was about two in the morning and boy was it dark. There was this brilliant ball of fire out front of us because he only loaded the powder! Field phone is going crazy, and we all are suffering from night blindness in a big way. Kid on the radio replies that he can't see a thing! Chief is packing his bags for a trip to jail. I think it's funny, but nobody else does. They count the ammo inventory every morning, and we got an extra round! As if I could care! Well we have a three man conference without the chief ( he was too stupid to be involved). Randy a I grab a round off one of the HE ready racks, and the two of us stuck it under the tarp on the bunker rook. The plan was to shoot ten rounds in place of nine during a zone sweep. We were plenty fast enough to do it, and we figured all would be OK in 24 hours.
We kinda go into a lull in combat, and didn't shoot a zone sweep for over a month. Finally it happened! I climb up on the roof and roll the round down on the ground. Randy makes the new kid take it to the ready rack, and then put a fuse on it. All is OK. Next morning here comes TOP making is morning walk thru. Goes inside the bunker an grabs a Budwiser. Takes my church key and opens the can. Then turns around and say candidly; "about time you got rid of that extra round!"
gary
P.S. sometime I'll tell you about the great telephone pole theft
Khouli
Joined: March 13, 2020
KitMaker: 68 posts
Armorama: 68 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2020 - 06:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Roly, I stand corrected. Thats what an old 30+ memory does for you. I was sure they were connected, but you would know more about that for sure. Were 23 based at Hameln when you were with them ? I remember the M2 marshals always looked concerned when they were guiding us onto the ramp lol
23 Amphibious Engineer Sqn (23 AES) was part of the wider Regiment - 28 Amphibious Engineer Regiment (28 AER). Amph Sqns were 23 and 64 with 71 Trg Sqn. We shared the barracks with 65 Corps Sp sqn.
Yes, based almost in the centre of Hameln - Binden Bks (Scharnhorst Kaserne). Wonderful location and a fabulous posting. Sadly, no longer with us in its old format.
We were always nervous loading, there wasn't much margin for error!
Incidentally, the M2 was a development of a German vehicle known by them as 'Alligator'. Our M2s could deal with anything up to Class 70 as we had flotation bags we could deploy. My most enduring memory is when we completely bridged the Rhine near Heidelburg - the whole Regiment ~99 'Rigs' - very impressive.
M2s were replaced by the much more automated M3s in around '92.
Johnnych01
Joined: June 29, 2019
KitMaker: 604 posts
Armorama: 506 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2020 - 08:00 PM UTC
You were nervous lol ..... I remember the looks on some of faces as we hit those ramps .... sheer horror lol but saying that, those ramps were pretty tight to get on and there was always the unexpected drop as you hit it and left the rig on the far bank ... I always had this horror of slipping off mid transit in the middle of the river.
I remember watching one as they drifted off down stream in the middle of the river with no power lol, luckily the far bank stopped them about 100m down river.
Hameln was a very nice place, in fact the whole area round there was nice, spent lots of time driving round visiting all the WW2 sits or general day trips out with the wifey. Detmold and Sennelager were the same, nice areas with lots of history. Once chatted with one of the old range guys on Sennelager ranges, he was a crewman in SS Wiking (not confirmed, but I had no reason to doubt him) and although he never went into any great details, he did say he wasnt released as a POW until 1949/50 ... hard times Im sure.
Was just looking at google maps at Athlone and Lothian Bks and thinking back, so much of it has changed now from what it was when I was there. but I did love the place.
I remember watching one as they drifted off down stream in the middle of the river with no power lol, luckily the far bank stopped them about 100m down river.
Hameln was a very nice place, in fact the whole area round there was nice, spent lots of time driving round visiting all the WW2 sits or general day trips out with the wifey. Detmold and Sennelager were the same, nice areas with lots of history. Once chatted with one of the old range guys on Sennelager ranges, he was a crewman in SS Wiking (not confirmed, but I had no reason to doubt him) and although he never went into any great details, he did say he wasnt released as a POW until 1949/50 ... hard times Im sure.
Was just looking at google maps at Athlone and Lothian Bks and thinking back, so much of it has changed now from what it was when I was there. but I did love the place.
jrutman
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 02:16 AM UTC
Saw a lot of eye brow raisers during my time in uniform. One always sticks out to me though. I was a Platoon Daddy at Ft Carson at the time in charge of a heavy platoon (MECH)with a mortar section and a TOW section. I was also the Plt Leader as we were chronically short of Officers in those days.
The 81MM mortars were on a live-ex and a round failed to shoot. There is a strict SOP for reducing that kind of miss-fire and the kids had been thoroughly trained for that. The mortar section leader was quite competent. I was in the rear with the gear,a rare occurrence for me.
Any mortar guy knows when you handle this ,you uncouple from the base plate and lift the tube up to allow the round to slide out the front into the tender embrace of the loader. Under NO circumstances do you allow the tube,once tilted,to go back down below horizontal towards the rear. The kid was excited and couldn't unstick the round and that is EXACTLY what happened. The tube was oriented to the rear of the track(usual firing position) and when that round slipped down and hit the pin BANG it did what mortar rounds do-it went down range. I no longer remember the charge involved but it musta been a hefty one because thankfully it cleared the cross portion of the back of the gun opening in the roof but the recoil of the charge going off drove the tube(now out of its' baseplate) right through the poor kids elbow,through the upright for the TC seat,through the engine compartment door and into the engine block!
I beat myself up till this day about not being there but actually,the result would probably have been the same,it happened so fast.
Through the miracle of modern surgery the kid didn't loose his arm and in fact,regained most of the use of his elbow. God Bless the Army surgeons!
J
The 81MM mortars were on a live-ex and a round failed to shoot. There is a strict SOP for reducing that kind of miss-fire and the kids had been thoroughly trained for that. The mortar section leader was quite competent. I was in the rear with the gear,a rare occurrence for me.
Any mortar guy knows when you handle this ,you uncouple from the base plate and lift the tube up to allow the round to slide out the front into the tender embrace of the loader. Under NO circumstances do you allow the tube,once tilted,to go back down below horizontal towards the rear. The kid was excited and couldn't unstick the round and that is EXACTLY what happened. The tube was oriented to the rear of the track(usual firing position) and when that round slipped down and hit the pin BANG it did what mortar rounds do-it went down range. I no longer remember the charge involved but it musta been a hefty one because thankfully it cleared the cross portion of the back of the gun opening in the roof but the recoil of the charge going off drove the tube(now out of its' baseplate) right through the poor kids elbow,through the upright for the TC seat,through the engine compartment door and into the engine block!
I beat myself up till this day about not being there but actually,the result would probably have been the same,it happened so fast.
Through the miracle of modern surgery the kid didn't loose his arm and in fact,regained most of the use of his elbow. God Bless the Army surgeons!
J
tnker101
Joined: November 30, 2007
KitMaker: 117 posts
Armorama: 115 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 02:56 AM UTC
Back in May of 2001 I had just returned to my Company after a year at Division (ugh). I was a fresh E-6 and was going to get my own tank. We were at Fort Drum and had our M1IPs (yes National Guard)out for some field training and I was riding with the Plt sgt in the loader's station getting some tips and map reading etc... when we crested a small hill and at the bottom there was area of water from snow melt off. Our driver stated it looked deep and wanted to go around, our wing tank and our gunner both felt it was a puddle. So after so good nature ribbing of our driver he throttled out. I don't quite remember how deep the front of the tank sunk into the "puddle" but the tidal wave from the impact went over the turret! Our driver of yelling at us because the seals on the drivers hatch seen better days and water was pouring in. The Plt Sgt told him to keep going until we cleared the puddle. Needless to say the rest of the day and weekend was the driver saying "told you so"! 
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 03:34 AM UTC
Hers' one of many over a 23 1/2 year carreer...
During the invasion of Iraq in '03, we expected the Iraqi's to use chemical weapons against us as we approached Baghdad. We planned for this and drilled on it before going north out of Kuwait. At every stop, we placed M22 Chemical Monitors around our battery position, were in MOPP 2 (JSLIST chem suit and boots worn) all the way up, had M9 Chemical Monitoring Paper on every vehicle, etc., etc...
On the night of April 2 (my 31st birthday) we were outside Baghdad in what was known as Objective Peach and began firing MLRS rockets at the Saddam International Airport in prep of the manauver guys assaulting it in the morning. Around midnight, all the M22 alarms start going off. Our Chemo (Chemical Officer) freeks out and we all go to MOPP 4, full chem gear including mask, and gloves. As we continue to fire and work in stifling MOPP 4, the Chemo starts doing her checks and calling DIVARTY to figure out what we are getting hit with and what to do next. About an hour goes by and we get the "All Clear" signal to come out of MOPP 4 back down to MOPP 2. All is well again. A couple hours later, my driver comes up to me still in MOPP 4 with a bewildered look on his face and asks me if it is safe to take his mask off. I tell him yes, it is safe as we got the all clear a couple hours ago. He was sleeping and missed it. Apparently, he woke to the alarms and commotion and putt his mask on, then went back to sleep and missed the all clear. We gave him crap for that for a while. He could sleep through anything.
To top the story off, there was no chem attack. It turned out that all the M22s had their batteries installed at about the same time and all the batteries ran low at about the same time and the alarms were for a low batteries, not a chem attack.
During the invasion of Iraq in '03, we expected the Iraqi's to use chemical weapons against us as we approached Baghdad. We planned for this and drilled on it before going north out of Kuwait. At every stop, we placed M22 Chemical Monitors around our battery position, were in MOPP 2 (JSLIST chem suit and boots worn) all the way up, had M9 Chemical Monitoring Paper on every vehicle, etc., etc...
On the night of April 2 (my 31st birthday) we were outside Baghdad in what was known as Objective Peach and began firing MLRS rockets at the Saddam International Airport in prep of the manauver guys assaulting it in the morning. Around midnight, all the M22 alarms start going off. Our Chemo (Chemical Officer) freeks out and we all go to MOPP 4, full chem gear including mask, and gloves. As we continue to fire and work in stifling MOPP 4, the Chemo starts doing her checks and calling DIVARTY to figure out what we are getting hit with and what to do next. About an hour goes by and we get the "All Clear" signal to come out of MOPP 4 back down to MOPP 2. All is well again. A couple hours later, my driver comes up to me still in MOPP 4 with a bewildered look on his face and asks me if it is safe to take his mask off. I tell him yes, it is safe as we got the all clear a couple hours ago. He was sleeping and missed it. Apparently, he woke to the alarms and commotion and putt his mask on, then went back to sleep and missed the all clear. We gave him crap for that for a while. He could sleep through anything.
To top the story off, there was no chem attack. It turned out that all the M22s had their batteries installed at about the same time and all the batteries ran low at about the same time and the alarms were for a low batteries, not a chem attack.
Johnnych01
Joined: June 29, 2019
KitMaker: 604 posts
Armorama: 506 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 04:32 AM UTC
This I am sure wont just of happened in my tank but a lot of others …..
While over in Canada at BATUS taking part in the MedMan exercise we were doing a Sqn night move.
Sqn Leader in OB was the lead tank (Chieftains), and we were going in troop order, so guess where good old C/S 42 was … yes, last tank out of 14. And it’s a full on black overcast night, no stars – Zilch. And its radio silence.
So, its about 2330ish and we have been on the go about 40 minutes following along blindly as we all knew the area we were going to, but not the exact grid so no one was even following on a map, we all just followed the convoy light in front of us.
Everything grinds to a halt and the loader from the wagon in front tells our driver( Chadwell- that we are having a quick 15 minute stop and running gear check and a brew. All good.
Brews are done so we give Chadwell his brew and back into the turret, and we are all inside, chatting, headsets on. Nice and easy, just tell Chadwell to keep an eye on the wagon in front and drive on once he sees it moving .. no problems …….
10 minutes later ..
“Chadwell, anything happening ……”
“ No, they are still there” ok we say, just keep an eye on them….. “ok” from Chadwell…..
20 minutes later …… “Chadwell…? “ nothing …” Chadwell… ?” nothing..
“CHADWELL F*****G WAKE UP !!!!” … “ I wasn’t asleep I wasn’t ( in the most pleading voice ever !!)
“ they still in front ?” ……… very very long silence …. “uhmmmm I cant see a convoy light” ..”YOU F*****G IDIOT ***********”
After a lot of swearing and death threats … we calm down. But now we are worried lol….
So, Chadwell, had of course dropped his seat down and laid back and dropped off into the slumber of the gods ….
We have no firm grid, just an area, it’s a pitch black night, its radio silence and there is no way we are going to break that to admit our driver is an idiot and we have no clue where we are ….. now if anyone knows BATUS, you know that’s not a good situation to be in.
So, what does any normal panic-stricken crew do …. We drive lol ….
We told Chadwell to drive following the ground and with some direction from us but he needed to be going at a steady pace, as we knew from old that the Sqn Ldr would follow a pretty standard route following the terrain from where we were to the area we were going to …….
After about 90 minutes of a pretty fast, bumpy, nerve racking drive we round a corner between 2 bits of high ground we have been driving between ….. hope upon hope in the distance, there is a faint glow of a dimmed light ……… 10 minutes later…. We slowly edge up to the rear of our 41 C/S …
20 minutes after that, we pulled in the Sqn lay up area for the night …… No one in the crew ever mentioned it and no one else ever had a clue …..
Chadwell did not get much sleep from that point on !!!!
While over in Canada at BATUS taking part in the MedMan exercise we were doing a Sqn night move.
Sqn Leader in OB was the lead tank (Chieftains), and we were going in troop order, so guess where good old C/S 42 was … yes, last tank out of 14. And it’s a full on black overcast night, no stars – Zilch. And its radio silence.
So, its about 2330ish and we have been on the go about 40 minutes following along blindly as we all knew the area we were going to, but not the exact grid so no one was even following on a map, we all just followed the convoy light in front of us.
Everything grinds to a halt and the loader from the wagon in front tells our driver( Chadwell- that we are having a quick 15 minute stop and running gear check and a brew. All good.
Brews are done so we give Chadwell his brew and back into the turret, and we are all inside, chatting, headsets on. Nice and easy, just tell Chadwell to keep an eye on the wagon in front and drive on once he sees it moving .. no problems …….
10 minutes later ..
“Chadwell, anything happening ……”
“ No, they are still there” ok we say, just keep an eye on them….. “ok” from Chadwell…..
20 minutes later …… “Chadwell…? “ nothing …” Chadwell… ?” nothing..
“CHADWELL F*****G WAKE UP !!!!” … “ I wasn’t asleep I wasn’t ( in the most pleading voice ever !!)
“ they still in front ?” ……… very very long silence …. “uhmmmm I cant see a convoy light” ..”YOU F*****G IDIOT ***********”
After a lot of swearing and death threats … we calm down. But now we are worried lol….
So, Chadwell, had of course dropped his seat down and laid back and dropped off into the slumber of the gods ….
We have no firm grid, just an area, it’s a pitch black night, its radio silence and there is no way we are going to break that to admit our driver is an idiot and we have no clue where we are ….. now if anyone knows BATUS, you know that’s not a good situation to be in.
So, what does any normal panic-stricken crew do …. We drive lol ….
We told Chadwell to drive following the ground and with some direction from us but he needed to be going at a steady pace, as we knew from old that the Sqn Ldr would follow a pretty standard route following the terrain from where we were to the area we were going to …….
After about 90 minutes of a pretty fast, bumpy, nerve racking drive we round a corner between 2 bits of high ground we have been driving between ….. hope upon hope in the distance, there is a faint glow of a dimmed light ……… 10 minutes later…. We slowly edge up to the rear of our 41 C/S …
20 minutes after that, we pulled in the Sqn lay up area for the night …… No one in the crew ever mentioned it and no one else ever had a clue …..
Chadwell did not get much sleep from that point on !!!!
Bravo36
Joined: January 11, 2002
KitMaker: 247 posts
Armorama: 229 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 05:16 AM UTC
Call this one ‘Look out Below’.
In the mid-1970s, I ran a Mech Infantry platoon (M113A1s) in Ft Carson, Colorado, on the slopes of the Rocky Mountains. It was a very cold, windy, snowy and icy day, and I was leading my APCs in a winter training exercise down a pressed gravel road (“tank trail”) to a favorite training area. At one point the road ran for about 400 meters up a steep hill.
As we approached the slope, I saw an M60A1 tank struggling up the road, near the top of the hill. It was obviously having trouble completing the climb.
As I watched the beast’s tracks started to spin, but it wasn’t moving. In fact, it started to slide down, backwards towards us. At first, I didn’t believe what I was seeing, but damned if the road wasn’t so frozen and icy that the thing couldn’t get any purchase. I kid you not!
Then I snapped out of it and started to yell on the intercom and the radio to my platoon, “reverse now!”, and in ignominious retreat we backed our little aluminum boxes out of the way, to give the 50 ton hunk of American steal room to roam.
Of course, all my driver could see was the big monster sliding his way. As the TC, I had to direct him back, so I spent my time, with my head on a swivel, looking back and looking forwards.
Eventually, when the M60 hit the softer ground at the bottom of the slope, the tracks bit, and tank ground to a halt. Without crushing us like bugs.
Later as we steered off the road and around the thing, sitting stationary while the crew changed their pants. (I and my driver just might have been in that same situation) we waved, as our APCs, were better able to negotiate that terrain than the tank was.
In the mid-1970s, I ran a Mech Infantry platoon (M113A1s) in Ft Carson, Colorado, on the slopes of the Rocky Mountains. It was a very cold, windy, snowy and icy day, and I was leading my APCs in a winter training exercise down a pressed gravel road (“tank trail”) to a favorite training area. At one point the road ran for about 400 meters up a steep hill.
As we approached the slope, I saw an M60A1 tank struggling up the road, near the top of the hill. It was obviously having trouble completing the climb.
As I watched the beast’s tracks started to spin, but it wasn’t moving. In fact, it started to slide down, backwards towards us. At first, I didn’t believe what I was seeing, but damned if the road wasn’t so frozen and icy that the thing couldn’t get any purchase. I kid you not!
Then I snapped out of it and started to yell on the intercom and the radio to my platoon, “reverse now!”, and in ignominious retreat we backed our little aluminum boxes out of the way, to give the 50 ton hunk of American steal room to roam.
Of course, all my driver could see was the big monster sliding his way. As the TC, I had to direct him back, so I spent my time, with my head on a swivel, looking back and looking forwards.
Eventually, when the M60 hit the softer ground at the bottom of the slope, the tracks bit, and tank ground to a halt. Without crushing us like bugs.
Later as we steered off the road and around the thing, sitting stationary while the crew changed their pants. (I and my driver just might have been in that same situation) we waved, as our APCs, were better able to negotiate that terrain than the tank was.
Bravo36
Joined: January 11, 2002
KitMaker: 247 posts
Armorama: 229 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 05:23 AM UTC
Hi Jerry, when were you at Carson? I was only there in 1974 & half of 1975. in 1/11 Infantry... See my Ft Carson story, below. 
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
Armorama: 965 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 05:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Some of these have modeling possibilities! Sheridan/M60A1 vs Mercedes anyone?
Well, the kits are all available; for M60A1s take your pick from several, ditto the Sheridan, and Diopark for the Mercedes.
Add German road markers from Dio-Factory and job done!
jrutman
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 05:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Jerry, when were you at Carson? I was only there in 1974 & half of 1975. in 1/11 Infantry... See my Ft Carson story, below.
I began in 1/11 Inf as well but we changed designation partway through my 3 years there from 80 to 83. I got moved to a brand new "Cohort" unit and went over to Germany with them for my second German tour.
Lovely place,Colorado. Nice weather as well. Thin air though,took some getting used to.
J
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 05:53 AM UTC
Hummm. Too many stories, too little space. Shooting at deer on the tank range, gunner sight sees over the berm but the tube is below the berm edge, throwing track in a deep crevice on the side of a steep hill, sinking the tank to over the sponson boxes while on what appeared to be a dry dirt road, the heater fuel line broke while the heater was on causing a scary fire burning around a load of live heat rounds next to the driver, unloading a tank from a ferry and the tow hook caught on the edge of the loading dock. The tracks pushed the ferry back and the tank dropped into 60 feet of water, putting cs powder into the CO's ac vent in his car after he threw a bunch of CS powder into the staff camp fire,
putting a quarter size hole in the XO's gas mask filter at the gas chamber and grumping at him about "How to properly seal his mask" and sending him back in 5 times, gunners sweat shirt on top of the gun causing it to stay out of battery, Night road march down a dusty tank trail with overcast, no moon and overhead trees with zero visibility near the back of the column and ending up in Timbuktu wondering where the rest of the column turned, being in the Kuwait oil fires at night and establishing absolute zero visibility with the night passive sites and suddenly a tow flies 20 feet over the tanks turret lighting up the night, etc...
putting a quarter size hole in the XO's gas mask filter at the gas chamber and grumping at him about "How to properly seal his mask" and sending him back in 5 times, gunners sweat shirt on top of the gun causing it to stay out of battery, Night road march down a dusty tank trail with overcast, no moon and overhead trees with zero visibility near the back of the column and ending up in Timbuktu wondering where the rest of the column turned, being in the Kuwait oil fires at night and establishing absolute zero visibility with the night passive sites and suddenly a tow flies 20 feet over the tanks turret lighting up the night, etc...
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 07:32 AM UTC
Installment #2 of my “Fun with Chemicals” stories as promised above.
If you’re not familiar with Johnston Island (JI), its a small remote coral atoll, partially man-made, about 800 NM SW of Hawaii. It’s an island fraught with mishaps, misadventure, and adventure. Managed by the USAF because it was the site of two Nuclear Thor missile mishaps in the 1950s and 60s, with the main tenant being the US Army Chemical Weapons Storage Depot-Pacific, including all the agent Orange transferred from Vietnam at the end of that War. In short, it was a speck of land in the Pacific teeming with every conceivable toxic agent in the US inventory. All the Chemical weapons from Europe were shipped there by 1990, just before the First Gulf War. I happened to be the Deputy Chemical Officer At US Army Pacific at the time, and spent a lot of time on JI. The workforce at JI was pretty large, being about 2/3 civilian, and 1/3 military specialists. The civilian workforce was largely contracted from various companies, Boeing, Batelle, Lockheed-Martin, etc. At the beginning of the 1980s, it was decided to dispose of all the Chemical Weapons in the US inventory, with the pilot disposal facility being built at JI. It would be known as JACADS— the Johnston Island Chemical Agent Decontamination System. Several civilian contractors supplied personnel to work in the facility, after they went through an intensive training program. The son of one of the very senior flag officers based in Hawaii signed up, as a civilian contractor. he was a bit of a smart-ass, and had been wild in his younger years, gaining a “know-it-all reputation, and using his fathers rank as an excuse. JACADS used a special protective uniform for personnel entering any contaminated part of the plant. Imagine a clear vinyl baggy with legs and arms, and a peaked head cover that you entered from the backside, then backed into a giant heat sealer, which effectively “sealed” you into the suit In an air-tight “bag”. For communications, you wore a radio harness inside the suit with a headset, and an antenna wire that ran down your back inside the suit. We called the outfit a “Meat Saving Seal a Meal”, I forget what the official designation was now. At the end of your shift, you were cut out of the suit and it was incinerated. One particular day, the erstwhile son of the senior officer was joking around, and decided it would be interesting to leave his headset antenna wire dangling outside the suit like a vestigial tail. Unfortunately, the “Seal a Meal” system used several thousand volts of electricity to “weld” the vinyl suit into an airtight seal. When the two sides of this giant electrode clamped together, the resulting current traveled up the pinched antenna, through the headset, and into the unlucky victims ear, promptly blowing off the ear and a good portion of the kids scalp. Fortunately for him, he was rendered unconscious, and woke up in Tripler Army Hospital several days later, with an excruciating headache. I’m not sure he was ever the same again, and never regained the hearing in the ear. This is why you should never joke around dangerous equipment. The Army learned a lesson too, and promptly shortened the antenna on the “seal a meal”, making it impossible to dangle outside the suit.
I have many more “adventures with Chemicals”, including a trip to recover WWII chemical munitions on Guadalcanal. Fortunately, I tried to learn from others mistakes so I didn’t blow my own ears off, or any other parts of my anatomy.
VR, Russ
If you’re not familiar with Johnston Island (JI), its a small remote coral atoll, partially man-made, about 800 NM SW of Hawaii. It’s an island fraught with mishaps, misadventure, and adventure. Managed by the USAF because it was the site of two Nuclear Thor missile mishaps in the 1950s and 60s, with the main tenant being the US Army Chemical Weapons Storage Depot-Pacific, including all the agent Orange transferred from Vietnam at the end of that War. In short, it was a speck of land in the Pacific teeming with every conceivable toxic agent in the US inventory. All the Chemical weapons from Europe were shipped there by 1990, just before the First Gulf War. I happened to be the Deputy Chemical Officer At US Army Pacific at the time, and spent a lot of time on JI. The workforce at JI was pretty large, being about 2/3 civilian, and 1/3 military specialists. The civilian workforce was largely contracted from various companies, Boeing, Batelle, Lockheed-Martin, etc. At the beginning of the 1980s, it was decided to dispose of all the Chemical Weapons in the US inventory, with the pilot disposal facility being built at JI. It would be known as JACADS— the Johnston Island Chemical Agent Decontamination System. Several civilian contractors supplied personnel to work in the facility, after they went through an intensive training program. The son of one of the very senior flag officers based in Hawaii signed up, as a civilian contractor. he was a bit of a smart-ass, and had been wild in his younger years, gaining a “know-it-all reputation, and using his fathers rank as an excuse. JACADS used a special protective uniform for personnel entering any contaminated part of the plant. Imagine a clear vinyl baggy with legs and arms, and a peaked head cover that you entered from the backside, then backed into a giant heat sealer, which effectively “sealed” you into the suit In an air-tight “bag”. For communications, you wore a radio harness inside the suit with a headset, and an antenna wire that ran down your back inside the suit. We called the outfit a “Meat Saving Seal a Meal”, I forget what the official designation was now. At the end of your shift, you were cut out of the suit and it was incinerated. One particular day, the erstwhile son of the senior officer was joking around, and decided it would be interesting to leave his headset antenna wire dangling outside the suit like a vestigial tail. Unfortunately, the “Seal a Meal” system used several thousand volts of electricity to “weld” the vinyl suit into an airtight seal. When the two sides of this giant electrode clamped together, the resulting current traveled up the pinched antenna, through the headset, and into the unlucky victims ear, promptly blowing off the ear and a good portion of the kids scalp. Fortunately for him, he was rendered unconscious, and woke up in Tripler Army Hospital several days later, with an excruciating headache. I’m not sure he was ever the same again, and never regained the hearing in the ear. This is why you should never joke around dangerous equipment. The Army learned a lesson too, and promptly shortened the antenna on the “seal a meal”, making it impossible to dangle outside the suit.
I have many more “adventures with Chemicals”, including a trip to recover WWII chemical munitions on Guadalcanal. Fortunately, I tried to learn from others mistakes so I didn’t blow my own ears off, or any other parts of my anatomy.
VR, Russ
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 07:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Installment #2....... Fortunately, I tried to learn from others mistakes so I didn’t blow my own ears off, or any other parts of my anatomy.
VR, Russ
Robin Nilsson 4 level scale of human intelligence, most advanced at the top, i.e. nr 5:
5. Can predict dangerous situations/mistakes and acts to prevent, avoid or mitigate the consequences of them.
4. Can't predict but can learn from mistakes made by others.
3. Doesn't learn from mistakes by others, needs to make their own mistakes so that they can learn from them.
2. Repeats mistakes made by others in the mistaken belief that 'It won't hapoen to me, that other person was just clumsy/stupid/unlucky'
1. Repeats mistakes in the hope that they will succeed the next time.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 10:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextInstallment #2....... Fortunately, I tried to learn from others mistakes so I didn’t blow my own ears off, or any other parts of my anatomy.
VR, Russ
Robin Nilsson 4 level scale of human intelligence, most advanced at the top, i.e. nr 5:
5. Can predict dangerous situations/mistakes and acts to prevent, avoid or mitigate the consequences of them.
4. Can't predict but can learn from mistakes made by others.
3. Doesn't learn from mistakes by others, needs to make their own mistakes so that they can learn from them.
2. Repeats mistakes made by others in the mistaken belief that 'It won't hapoen to me, that other person was just clumsy/stupid/unlucky'
1. Repeats mistakes in the hope that they will succeed the next time.
I’m with you Robin... because the business I was in (like yours is) was inherently dangerous, every day, I used to keep a prominent sign on my desk...It had a cartoon of a rat, snapped snout first into a bloody trap. Below the picture was an old saying—“Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement”. It served me well. I once had a 3 Star General Officer pull me aside after I gave a briefing on a plan to recover WWII chemical munitions at a very remote location, with no back up. He gave me some advice I’ll never forget— “Major, you’re in charge of this operation, your judgement may make the difference between life and death. You have my permission to err on the side of life”. I’ll always remember those words. In combat, we don’t always have all the information to “err on the side of life”. But there’s little excuse in peacetime. But as someone said above, or in another post... “you can’t cure stupid”. And I’m convinced there is such a thing as “terminal stupidity”.
VR, Russ
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 11:17 AM UTC
One of the best nuggets I was ever given was from Colonel Bob Howard when I graduated the Q course (Special Forces Qualification Course) as a young private. He was our commandant during Phase I, and arguably THE most decorated SF soldier ever. He said "You're in an elite community now. There are unfortunately those who would try to make their candles shine brighter by snuffing out the candles of others. Beware them."
I was twenty. I've never forgotten that.
Plus, Colonel Howard personally saved me from getting released from the course after Phase I (the most grueling phase in which we lost 2/3 of the candidates) was almost complete. I failed the Bowline knot not once, but twice, and was told to get on the Blue Bird to happiness to go back to Ft. Bragg. Only his intervention saved me and a handful of other dudes. The instructor who graded us was looking at the appearance of the knot, not how it was actually tied. Turns out our knots were perfect. Just reversed, as we were all left handed. That instructor had some private counseling with then Major Howard right after that...
Come to think of it, I've seen the candle snuffing thing here more than once...
I was twenty. I've never forgotten that.
Plus, Colonel Howard personally saved me from getting released from the course after Phase I (the most grueling phase in which we lost 2/3 of the candidates) was almost complete. I failed the Bowline knot not once, but twice, and was told to get on the Blue Bird to happiness to go back to Ft. Bragg. Only his intervention saved me and a handful of other dudes. The instructor who graded us was looking at the appearance of the knot, not how it was actually tied. Turns out our knots were perfect. Just reversed, as we were all left handed. That instructor had some private counseling with then Major Howard right after that...
Come to think of it, I've seen the candle snuffing thing here more than once...
TankCarl
Joined: May 10, 2002
KitMaker: 3,581 posts
Armorama: 2,782 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 12:30 PM UTC
Nov '76 or '77.Our M60A2 unit (1/3th armor) was returning from an alert. Some German nationals,in one of those VW platform wagon trucks,were driving the other way on the road we were on.
They had been drinking. they swerved into the first tank in our column,and hit between the last roadwheel, and the sprocket. The VW was flipped upside down, and thrown to the far side of the road. They got out fine. The Polezei, when they arrived, looked at the carnage, and said "tipsy, ja ja?" A picture taken of the incident was on the front of Stars and Stripes.
They had been drinking. they swerved into the first tank in our column,and hit between the last roadwheel, and the sprocket. The VW was flipped upside down, and thrown to the far side of the road. They got out fine. The Polezei, when they arrived, looked at the carnage, and said "tipsy, ja ja?" A picture taken of the incident was on the front of Stars and Stripes.
Bravo36
Joined: January 11, 2002
KitMaker: 247 posts
Armorama: 229 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 02:02 PM UTC
This one is a candidate for a diorama, now that Tamiya released a Gamma Goat kit.
This is a ‘war story’. I did not witness the event, although it was told to me as if it actually happened within our Battalion.
An Infantry company XO was in his jeep, following a Gamma Goat loaded with supplies, cross country, to deliver to the troops somewhere in the forest.
The Goat came to a steam and headed across. The Lieutenant’s driver just followed it across; until he and the hapless lieutenant were neck-deep in the water.
The Gamma Goat, you see, can ‘swim’. It’s two sections are each designed to float, and the treads on the spinning tires provide locomotion. At some point the thing had just floated off the bottom and floated across. The jeep didn’t.
BTW: Do you know the difference between a ‘war story’ and a fairy tale? One starts with “you ain’t going ta believe this [auto-censored],” and the other starts with “once upon a time.” After that, the two stories are very much the same.
This is a ‘war story’. I did not witness the event, although it was told to me as if it actually happened within our Battalion.
An Infantry company XO was in his jeep, following a Gamma Goat loaded with supplies, cross country, to deliver to the troops somewhere in the forest.
The Goat came to a steam and headed across. The Lieutenant’s driver just followed it across; until he and the hapless lieutenant were neck-deep in the water.
The Gamma Goat, you see, can ‘swim’. It’s two sections are each designed to float, and the treads on the spinning tires provide locomotion. At some point the thing had just floated off the bottom and floated across. The jeep didn’t.
BTW: Do you know the difference between a ‘war story’ and a fairy tale? One starts with “you ain’t going ta believe this [auto-censored],” and the other starts with “once upon a time.” After that, the two stories are very much the same.
Khouli
Joined: March 13, 2020
KitMaker: 68 posts
Armorama: 68 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 07:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You were nervous lol ..... I remember the looks on some of faces as we hit those ramps .... sheer horror lol but saying that, those ramps were pretty tight to get on and there was always the unexpected drop as you hit it and left the rig on the far bank ... I always had this horror of slipping off mid transit in the middle of the river.
I remember watching one as they drifted off down stream in the middle of the river with no power lol, luckily the far bank stopped them about 100m down river.
Hameln was a very nice place, in fact the whole area round there was nice, spent lots of time driving round visiting all the WW2 sits or general day trips out with the wifey. Detmold and Sennelager were the same, nice areas with lots of history. Once chatted with one of the old range guys on Sennelager ranges, he was a crewman in SS Wiking (not confirmed, but I had no reason to doubt him) and although he never went into any great details, he did say he wasnt released as a POW until 1949/50 ... hard times Im sure.
Was just looking at google maps at Athlone and Lothian Bks and thinking back, so much of it has changed now from what it was when I was there. but I did love the place.
I had a baptism of fire - arrived at the Regt straight out of the Depot to be told, "don't unpack, you're going on exercise".
Exercise Ironhammer.
Shudders...
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
Armorama: 965 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 09:37 PM UTC
Chaps,
I am not sure what I've written (some years ago) will provide any entertainment whatsoever, and may not meet Hans-Hermann's criteria at all, so Robin, please remove if you see fit.
The content does not cover much derring-do at all, after all, I was not in a Combat Arm - but clerical - well, someone's got to do the Army's paperwork, but during my nearly 45 years of service I saw and learned a lot.
The British Army used to have a manning system called "Junior Leaders" whereby youngsters could joint the Army at age 15, undertake training for 2 and a half years then hit adult service fully qualified, bright-eyed and busy-tailed with an aim of providing the Army's SNCOs and Warrant Officers. By and large, the system worked with many going on to commissioned rank up to, in some cases, full Colonel.
I attempted over a span of around 8 years or so, to recall my memories of my training; it was written for a specific website of ex-members so is crafted in a particular vein.
It is not that inspiring a read perhaps and I claim no great ability in the written art, but some may find it interesting even if only to see how other parts of the British Army operated its training regime in the late 60s/early 70s for junior soldiers. Anyway, for what it's worth (and it does go on a fair bit) see:
http://www.juniorleadersraoc.co.uk/Members/memories_brain_stoddart.htm
I should just stress that most Corps of the British Army operated the junior leaders system - from Combat Arms to Support Arms.
For those not that familiar with British Army nomenclature and abbreviations:
ACE - Army Certificate of Education
AEC - Army Education Centre
Blanco - a paste designed to preserve/colour webbing material
CSM - Company Sergeant Major
GCE O Level - General Certificate of Education Ordinary Level (a higher education qualification)
KF - Khaki Flannel
OC - Officer Commanding (of a sub-unit eg a Company)
OS - Ordnance Survey - national surveyor/printer of maps
No 2 Dress - best uniform
PT - Physical Training
Pl - Platoon
RSM - Regimental Sergeant Major
RPC - Regimental Proficiency Certificate
2iC - Second in Command
SLR - Self Loading Rifle - of FN design in 7.62 calibre
WRVS - Women's Royal Voluntary Service - a welfare organization
Brian
I am not sure what I've written (some years ago) will provide any entertainment whatsoever, and may not meet Hans-Hermann's criteria at all, so Robin, please remove if you see fit.
The content does not cover much derring-do at all, after all, I was not in a Combat Arm - but clerical - well, someone's got to do the Army's paperwork, but during my nearly 45 years of service I saw and learned a lot.
The British Army used to have a manning system called "Junior Leaders" whereby youngsters could joint the Army at age 15, undertake training for 2 and a half years then hit adult service fully qualified, bright-eyed and busy-tailed with an aim of providing the Army's SNCOs and Warrant Officers. By and large, the system worked with many going on to commissioned rank up to, in some cases, full Colonel.
I attempted over a span of around 8 years or so, to recall my memories of my training; it was written for a specific website of ex-members so is crafted in a particular vein.
It is not that inspiring a read perhaps and I claim no great ability in the written art, but some may find it interesting even if only to see how other parts of the British Army operated its training regime in the late 60s/early 70s for junior soldiers. Anyway, for what it's worth (and it does go on a fair bit) see:
http://www.juniorleadersraoc.co.uk/Members/memories_brain_stoddart.htm
I should just stress that most Corps of the British Army operated the junior leaders system - from Combat Arms to Support Arms.
For those not that familiar with British Army nomenclature and abbreviations:
ACE - Army Certificate of Education
AEC - Army Education Centre
Blanco - a paste designed to preserve/colour webbing material
CSM - Company Sergeant Major
GCE O Level - General Certificate of Education Ordinary Level (a higher education qualification)
KF - Khaki Flannel
OC - Officer Commanding (of a sub-unit eg a Company)
OS - Ordnance Survey - national surveyor/printer of maps
No 2 Dress - best uniform
PT - Physical Training
Pl - Platoon
RSM - Regimental Sergeant Major
RPC - Regimental Proficiency Certificate
2iC - Second in Command
SLR - Self Loading Rifle - of FN design in 7.62 calibre
WRVS - Women's Royal Voluntary Service - a welfare organization
Brian
Khouli
Joined: March 13, 2020
KitMaker: 68 posts
Armorama: 68 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 09:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Chaps,
I am not sure what I've written (some years ago) will provide any entertainment whatsoever, and may not meet Hans-Hermann's criteria at all, so Robin, please remove if you see fit.
The content does not cover much derring-do at all, after all, I was not in a Combat Arm - but clerical - well, someone's got to do the Army's paperwork, but during my nearly 45 years of service I saw and learned a lot.
The British Army used to have a manning system called "Junior Leaders" whereby youngsters could joint the Army at age 15, undertake training for 2 and a half years then hit adult service fully qualified, bright-eyed and busy-tailed with an aim of providing the Army's SNCOs and Warrant Officers. By and large, the system worked with many going on to commissioned rank up to, in some cases, full Colonel.
I attempted over a span of around 8 years or so, to recall my memories of my training; it was written for a specific website of ex-members so is crafted in a particular vein.
It is not that inspiring a read perhaps and I claim no great ability in the written art, but some may find it interesting even if only to see how other parts of the British Army operated its training regime in the late 60s/early 70s for junior soldiers. Anyway, for what it's worth (and it does go on a fair bit) see:
http://www.juniorleadersraoc.co.uk/Members/memories_brain_stoddart.htm
I should just stress that most Corps of the British Army operated the junior leaders system - from Combat Arms to Support Arms.
For those not that familiar with British Army nomenclature and abbreviations:
ACE - Army Certificate of Education
AEC - Army Education Centre
Blanco - a paste designed to preserve/colour webbing material
CSM - Company Sergeant Major
GCE O Level - General Certificate of Education Ordinary Level (a higher education qualification)
KF - Khaki Flannel
OC - Officer Commanding (of a sub-unit eg a Company)
OS - Ordnance Survey - national surveyor/printer of maps
No 2 Dress - best uniform
PT - Physical Training
Pl - Platoon
RSM - Regimental Sergeant Major
RPC - Regimental Proficiency Certificate
2iC - Second in Command
SLR - Self Loading Rifle - of FN design in 7.62 calibre
WRVS - Women's Royal Voluntary Service - a welfare organization
Brian
In the Royal Engineers, our JLs were nicknmamed 'FREDs' or, Future Royal Engineer Disasters.
They were universally loathed, especially by Trg Regt staff. The FREDs would turn up at RSME from Dover having already served for about 18 months and thought they were the dog's lipsticks. The NCOs used to take great delight in thrashing them to the point of exhaustion and PVR...
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
Armorama: 965 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 10:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextChaps,
I am not sure what I've written (some years ago) will provide any entertainment whatsoever, and may not meet Hans-Hermann's criteria at all, so Robin, please remove if you see fit.
The content does not cover much derring-do at all, after all, I was not in a Combat Arm - but clerical - well, someone's got to do the Army's paperwork, but during my nearly 45 years of service I saw and learned a lot.
The British Army used to have a manning system called "Junior Leaders" whereby youngsters could joint the Army at age 15, undertake training for 2 and a half years then hit adult service fully qualified, bright-eyed and busy-tailed with an aim of providing the Army's SNCOs and Warrant Officers. By and large, the system worked with many going on to commissioned rank up to, in some cases, full Colonel.
I attempted over a span of around 8 years or so, to recall my memories of my training; it was written for a specific website of ex-members so is crafted in a particular vein.
It is not that inspiring a read perhaps and I claim no great ability in the written art, but some may find it interesting even if only to see how other parts of the British Army operated its training regime in the late 60s/early 70s for junior soldiers. Anyway, for what it's worth (and it does go on a fair bit) see:
http://www.juniorleadersraoc.co.uk/Members/memories_brain_stoddart.htm
I should just stress that most Corps of the British Army operated the junior leaders system - from Combat Arms to Support Arms.
For those not that familiar with British Army nomenclature and abbreviations:
ACE - Army Certificate of Education
AEC - Army Education Centre
Blanco - a paste designed to preserve/colour webbing material
CSM - Company Sergeant Major
GCE O Level - General Certificate of Education Ordinary Level (a higher education qualification)
KF - Khaki Flannel
OC - Officer Commanding (of a sub-unit eg a Company)
OS - Ordnance Survey - national surveyor/printer of maps
No 2 Dress - best uniform
PT - Physical Training
Pl - Platoon
RSM - Regimental Sergeant Major
RPC - Regimental Proficiency Certificate
2iC - Second in Command
SLR - Self Loading Rifle - of FN design in 7.62 calibre
WRVS - Women's Royal Voluntary Service - a welfare organization
Brian
In the Royal Engineers, our JLs were nicknmamed 'FREDs' or, Future Royal Engineer Disasters.
They were universally loathed, especially by Trg Regt staff. The FREDs would turn up at RSME from Dover having already served for about 18 months and thought they were the dog's lipsticks. The NCOs used to take great delight in thrashing them to the point of exhaustion and PVR...
Roly,
I am sure we did irritate more than we should have; in a way of course, it was the fault of the system - we were indeed highly qualified (in the scheme of things) so did, I'm sure, present as though we knew it all. In a way I was lucky, as I - when I got to my first adult unit - was still physically small so wasn't really in any position to gob off, and perhaps that was a saving grace; coupled with a certain animal cunning I managed to survive the rigours ever present in the barrack room.
I can only really quote authoritatively re my own capbadge but generally, we were well received especially by the (highly trained and demanding) staff officers we worked to in the various formation HQs; perhaps it was because in a way we were indoctrinated and exceptionally keen. Hitler Jugend anyone?
Brian
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