I built this Academy 1/35 M12 sp gun last november. It was one of my first armor kits that I built after building ships and aircraft for years. (now I'm hooked!) It was a bad attempt at weathering! So the last couple of days I have spent re-weathering it. So I decided to post pic's of it here to see what you all think about the weathering. All imput is welcome, it helps me learn.









TIA,

Garry
P.S. I still have to add the tailgate cables.

If I may be so bold, a couple of things come to mind.

a) You have painted your gun muzzle black. From what I have been told modern (i.e. post Boer War) artilley burns too cleanly to leave carbon residue. What looks black on photos is generally an area near the muzzle where the dirt and dust have been blown away by the muzzle blast and thus look darker than the dusty other areas.

b) Your main muddy streaking on the hull sides has a fore and aft (Ssee? Naval terms!) grain to it. Most vehicle splashes won't be this streaky. It tends to be pretty uniform, but if there are streaks most of them will will splash upwards and to the rear as the muck is thrown up from the ground near the front of the vehicle and will radiate upwards from the rear idler as muck is thrown off the tracks at the rear of the vehicle. Think of how splashes radiate from the wheels of a car driving on a muddy dirt road. Also think how uniform such mud is if the vehicle has been driving on the dirt road for a while. That is the effect you are looking for.

The rest look quite good, these are just a couple of constructive things I thought I'd pass on.

Paul

Hi Gary,
I think your progressing very nicely. I agree with Paul's comments and think just a bit more tweaking is in order. If you have used weathering powders or pigments to apply the muddy dusty look its a very easy fix. Just take a wide flat brush and slightly dampen it with your choice of thinner or water etc etc. Just dampen it not wet. Now ever so slightly start at the bottom and work your way up the model. Then re apply as necessary. Remember you want your weathering to look natural and not placed on the model. You are off to a great start and with a bit of fiddling here and there you will have a winner for sure. Keep on building
cheers,
Bryan

not a bad job for your frist time weathing.
weathing is a pain in the butt.
it will take u a few modles to get it right,
but use this as a parctie model

I like it. I might have to get an M12 soon

Ok guys, thanks for your help! Here is my last build to compare the weathering, I was trying to achieve the results I got with my Sherman 105mm build. I got some good feed back from the sherman. Do you think I might have hurried the M12 job?





Thanks,

Garry

On the Sherman it still looks like you weathered it horizontal. The weathering needs to go from top to bottom, like water running off. Around the bottom area imaging how the mud and water would splash up around wheels and track.

Howdy Garry!

Mighty glad you posted this thread , I've been looking for your original thread (your Sherman thread's) for some time. Apparently I've become mentally challenged and have not been able to locate them......until now.

I'm lovin' your M12 , but I won't actually say so, because then Shermie's will take it upon himself to build one before I do......
To your weathering. tankmodeler has made a good point about your mud "streaking". It indeed has a "fore & aft" appearance. Probably because you drew your brush 'fore & aft' to streak it.....
I just recently tried shooting, or 'dusting' my M4A1 Sherman (you listening Shermie's?) with pigment powders in my airbrush. Worked fantastic!.....that is, for at least a few passes. My Iwata AB is set too 'tight', so I tried switching to my very old, single-action Paasche. After remixing another bottle of sandy 'sludge', it covered the Sherman hull splendidly. The curved upper hull of the A1 allowed me to apply a nice gradient look to it.
This is one way.
Another, is to apply a fairly heavy coat of "mud weathering" on the lower 2/3rd's of the hull, allow to dry for a few minutes, and then treat the hull as if you were doing a winter 'white-wash' coating. The reason for this is that most 'mud', or road dust, will attach itself to the sides of the hull in the manner that our good tankmodeler has in fact already described. And most WWII armour crews were not taking the time to wash down their tanks like your local Firehouse crew does to their trucks. Especially in a heavily rain-prone area such as eastern Europe. What (in most cases) happened was, that normal rain water was the source of most tank 'washings'......so, drawing the moistened brush in a generally downward motion will simulate the effect of normal rain pouring down the sides of the hull and creating the 'streaks' that break up the overall coating of 'mud'.
........did this help any? , or, did it make it muddier?......

Tread.

Oh...oh....and, while we're on this subject. If you are wanting to add some more realism to your "mud streaking"....then you should think about this....most mud coatings on vehicle's are NOT a one-time application. Meaning, the coating of mud or road dust did not happen all at once....it in fact, is the result of multiple applications of this 'mud' or 'dust'. Sooooooo, the darkness (or lightness) of these subsequent coatings will, by definition, be different! Now.......there's a challenge for you matey!
Also (just to be additionally difficult). There should be areas that appear wetter than other's....(where the mud or dust is still moist). The Sherman bogie's are a superb place to experiment with this bit of 'realism'. To simulate this, you can use different degree's of mixture containing......(are you ready?).....Linseed Oil. That's right, boiled Linseed Oil tend's to remain shiny after it dries, depending upon it's potency within your mixture. Work's great!
You can also use Linseed Oil to simulate the 'wet' area's around fuel filler cap's, and spilled oil.........
again, hth.

HI Gary,
Are you trying to protray a muddy vehicle or a dusty vehicle or a bit of both? Weathering is a multi step process im afraid and even with the use of powders and pigments we still have to do all the basics first. Here are a few pics of my most recent build and you can see that some areas are wet some have road dust and it has creeped up the sides and been thrown up the back side as well. The mud is drywall compound MMP Mud and static grass. the dust is Tamiya buff and there are at least 5-7 applications of Oil washes . I do all of this in 2-3 layers as well for depth. Just take a look at a tractor or bulldozer at a constructions site and you will see exactly what happens to vehicles in the field. I hope this helps a bit. You are on the right track for sure
Cheers,
Bryan

Hey, this is good stuff guys ! A good group discusion is just what I needed. Thanks to all for the great input! Tread amigo, great tips and hints! I can realy see now the verticle brush strokes follows the natural weathering! Dont stop, time for some weathering brainstorming!

Cheers,

Garry

Yeah, thats what Im looking for! Bryan, supperb weathering! As is your entire build also. Good eye opener, thanks!

Garry

The build of the actual model looks very nice. With that said… the weathering looks cheesy.

May I suggest driving by a construction site and viewing the vehicles there? They are similar types of vehicles have a similar “used and abused” look.

Howdy fellas,

Nice work there Bryan. I especially like what you did with the idler axles, and the static grass treatment.
Your pic does a great job of showing almost exactly what I was trying to describe in my post....thx.
I would love to see how you handled the bogies....got anymore pics of those?

Garry, as usual, you handle our input with aplomb. And as has already been said, your build ups look fantastic....just a little fine-tuning with the weathering.

One of the laws I always try to incorporate is; to use your '1/35th scale eyes'. If you train yourself to do that, it all comes together.
Now, on the other hand, who am I to talk.......I can just not train myself to use my '1350th scale eyes....and you obviously have perfected that!

Tread.

Well made models, although I agre with the previous comments about the horizontal streaking. One way of correcting this without repainting could be to apply another dark brown wash, and then drybrush dust / dried mud in the vertical plane?
re. the comments on muzzle staining - as an ex-gunner (from the 1970s), whilst modern propellants do not leave as much carbon residue as older powders, they do leave some, and extended firing will leave the paint around the muzzle and end of the tube scorched, especially where a muzzle brake isn't fitted.

Bryan and all you other gentilmen, I totaly agree with what you say and the techniques you use. I was just thinking, looking at some of your awesome work.
If we are trying to duplicate the realism of natural weathering that builds up on a real vehicle. Also should'nt we add the wear from activity and travel ?
Lets say we have a tank that has been thru the weather, dirt roads, timber, hedges, rain and so forth.
A lot of places on this tanks coated surfice is going to be marked, scuffed and rubbed by boots, hands, tree branches and so on. Leaving marks and scrapes in the caked on weathering. Should'nt we also show these with our weathering ?
Please, I'm not trying to be bold here. Just want to kick around some thoughts and idea's! What do you gents think ?

,

Garry

Absolutely. If you see some of those competitive modelers you will see they have their own tehniques for achiee just those effects you mentioned. Those are the little details between a good model and a great model. I myself try to include a small amount of paint chips, scrapes to bare metal on things like bogey wheel rims, dents and dings on corners and fenders in addition to wearthering

Howdy Garry,

Yes, of course. The 'scuffing' should go hand-in-hand with weathering. But proper placement of this scuffing and chipping is the key. Don't just start going willy-nilly with your silver pencils, but instead look for natural paths of foot travel onto/off the vehicle. Places where tie -down ropes rub the edges, ammo loaded and unloaded scrapes, etc.
And just a further FYI. One of the most common things I see with people addingscuffing and paint chipping is; they tend to not add the 'third colour'. Meaning, that on a Tiger for example, there would be a red oxide primer applied to the bare metal first then the 'grau', or 'dunkelgelb'. So, if you have chipping or 'scuff's', you won't just see the exterior paint colour and then immediately shiny metal. You would, at the very least see a 'third colour'.


Tread.

Oh, BTW Shermies.......nice banner.


That'll be a Shilling for the endorsement.......

Absolutely, I agree with you 110%.Chipping and scuffing are an important aspect of weathering/ageing and I missed the boat on this one. :-) I feel its slightly over done these days and the chipped paint effect can get away from ya very easily. I find it hard to come to a happy "median" . OD is a hard colour to "chip" as well and I would love to hear how some of you guys approach it.
Cheers,
Bryan

G'morning Bryan, I agree with you about the OD being hard to chip. My thoughts on this is that on a hard surfice , tank turret. The paint would be more prone to rub off rather then chip. (sanding effect wear) Now on thin metal like fenders and storage boxes, I think the paint would chip. So generaly I think I would like to leave the chipping to aircraft modeling(soft aluminum).
Gouges and scratches seem to be a good place for the silver pencil. But also in the long run, I, like you prefer mild weathering and not overdone. LOL, I like to be able to see the road wheels!
Very interesting subject, thanks for the input!

Garry

your sherman looks better then the m-12.
but try useing pastels on the sides of the armor.
pastels work great.
but its comeing a long,
i have built like 5 tanks so far.
and my weathing still has a way to go.

Well I'm showing up late on this subject but I'm here now ..lol :-) I agree with what has been said so far ...I use a method of adding little dot of oil colors all over the vertical sides of a vehicle (raw umber ,Burnt umber ,raw sienna ,yellow ochre , and black and white.) I then take a flat brush and dip it in lighter fluid... I wipe most of it off and the drag my paint brush downwards ..wiping off the excess paint with each strock ... this first gives the paint a worn look and also makes the rain streak effect ... you then continue on with the usual weathering ..try it you'll like it.. As for chipping ..It looks like the US paint was more durable than the German paint so I restain myself to around hatches and on sharp corners. I also do multy colors on the dust and dirt ....My pershing has pigments and pastels used along with a coat of Tamiya buff..This is how it turned out.....



Rick

Howdy thebear,

Thanks for sharing pics of your sweet Pershing. It look's superb. But, what you are describing is normally referred to as 'filtering'. This adds depth to the overall base colour, and bolsters the 'rain streaking' affect as well. A technique you are obviously quite adept at.
For me, this is a seperate step. Done before my washes or weathering. The original discussion revolved around the mud streaking/dust covering that would settle on a highly mobile vehicle in (I assume) western Europe.
As to scuffing/chipping. Apparently we are in agreement there.....just enough, no more.

Tread.

Anybody want to discuss the pros and/or cons of the 'Euro' style of massive dry-brushing?? ......................hehe.....

Hi Rick, very well done on your Pershing ! Sounds like you have that technique down well, and makes perfect sents to me. Thanks for posting!

Cheers,

Garry

Hi Tread for me filters are another part of the process ..I use two or three different colors thinned to about 95%thinner to 5%paint this I use to vary the base colors tone ...But what ever we want to call it it all helps to make the monitone OD paint look alot more interesting ... I was thinking that maybe Garry you could use this technique over your mud color to vary the tone of the mud and dust ..hey it might work. .. Very interest thread you got going here Garry.

Rick

Thanks for that Rick, All good advice! I'm kind of in the past, I used an airbrush when I built a lot of aircraft. But all of my ships and armor are hand brushed painted. This is the style I prefer and enjoy.
Would there be a technique to achieve the same results or close to it ? I know an airbrush can do things the hand brush never thought of. But hehe, I try!
Thanks for your input Bear !

Garry