Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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Why no models of Soviet "Animal Hunters"?
Denizen
Joined: April 09, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 02:28 PM UTC
Has anyone else noticed how rare it is to see a model of the Russian "Animal Hunters" ? The Soviet designs that turned the tide against the germany aromored monsters, like the IS-2, ISU-152, and ISU-122 seem to be completely absent from the selves of US hobby stores. Why is this? The "animal hunters" are every bit as interesting as the as the "animals" they fought (ie panther, tiger) but why is it that my local hobby shop has 5 different tiger models and 4 different panther models while the Soviet heavies are MIA? Having already built the tiger and pather, is it so odd for me to want to build the tanks that fought them? Does anyone else out there share this view? #:-)
Linz
Australia
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Posted: Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 08:00 PM UTC
Nope, there are kits of Soviet AFVs out there.
ISU-122 by Dragon/DML/Shanghai Dragon
ISU-152 by Dragon/DML/Shanghai Dragon
ISU-122 by Italeri/Zvezda
SU-122 by Tamiya
SU-100 by Italeri
SU-100 by Dragon/DML/Shanghai Dragon
Then there is the IS-2 and IS-3 tanks kitted, the T-34/76 and /85 tanks kitted and the KV-1 and KV-2 tanks kitted.
All in 1/35, and some of the above may be the same kit.
Cheers,
Linz
ISU-122 by Dragon/DML/Shanghai Dragon
ISU-152 by Dragon/DML/Shanghai Dragon
ISU-122 by Italeri/Zvezda
SU-122 by Tamiya
SU-100 by Italeri
SU-100 by Dragon/DML/Shanghai Dragon
Then there is the IS-2 and IS-3 tanks kitted, the T-34/76 and /85 tanks kitted and the KV-1 and KV-2 tanks kitted.
All in 1/35, and some of the above may be the same kit.
Cheers,
Linz
sgtreef
Oklahoma, United States
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Posted: Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 08:38 PM UTC
Yes I found a store that had one left over Isu-152 and the JS-1 kit from dragon.m I wish they would do a SU-76 right!!!
avukich
Virginia, United States
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Posted: Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 10:34 PM UTC
I agree Denizen. Soviet armor is my favorite and it is rare to see Soviet kits. Like Linz pointed out, there are some kits out there, but compared to German subjects, Soviet vehicles have been relatively unexplored by the major manufacturers. I would like to see Tamiya or DML do some of the early war soviet vehicles such as the BT-5, BT-7, or a T-26. I know that there are kits out there of those vehicles (and they are pretty good), but I would like to see the big guys use their model making expertise to make a beautiful BT or T-26 kit.
Eastern Express makes a pretty nice ISU-152 that you most likely will only find online unless your local hobby shop is very well stocked.
Eastern Express makes a pretty nice ISU-152 that you most likely will only find online unless your local hobby shop is very well stocked.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 10:38 PM UTC
I've got to go with Linz, there are more Soviet TDs than US TDs. I have the Tamiya SU-122 and SU-85 (old kits) as well as a DML ISU-152. The ISU-152 is a rather nice kit. There are also several Russian made kits in 1/30 scale of various Soviet TDs.
avukich
Virginia, United States
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Posted: Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 10:47 PM UTC
Yes, but how many of these Soviet kits are up with current technology standards like the latest offerings of Tamiya and DML? Not many. Soviet kits that are very good are DML T-34/85, DML SU-100, DML ISU-152, and an arguement could be made for the Zvezda T-34 chassis based vehicles and the Eastern Express ISU-152 and late version KVs. The Tamiya SU-122 and SU-85 kits are the old motorized kits that can be made into nice models, but require a good amount of TLC.
I would like to see Tamiya retool their SU-122 and SU-85 kits up to today's standards like they did with their old Panzer IV Ausf H and their Tiger and Panther kits. Unfortunately, that will most likely never happen for 2 reasons: 1) Soviet equipment doesn't sell as well as German and 2) Tamiya makes the kits that Mr. Tamiya wants and I've heard from Tamiya America guys that Mr. Tamiya doesn't like Russian policies so he has vowed that Tamiya will not do another Russian kit (this is just heresay obviously, but who knows).
I would like to see Tamiya retool their SU-122 and SU-85 kits up to today's standards like they did with their old Panzer IV Ausf H and their Tiger and Panther kits. Unfortunately, that will most likely never happen for 2 reasons: 1) Soviet equipment doesn't sell as well as German and 2) Tamiya makes the kits that Mr. Tamiya wants and I've heard from Tamiya America guys that Mr. Tamiya doesn't like Russian policies so he has vowed that Tamiya will not do another Russian kit (this is just heresay obviously, but who knows).
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 11:13 PM UTC
Prior to the AFV Club and Academy TD race, the only US TDs were the ancient Tamiya M-10 and M36 and the rare Italeri M36B1 Jackson. I guess you can count the DML Fireflies, but they're more a Sherman than TD in most people's eye. Of cousre now with the AFV Club and Academy M18 and M10, US builder's are getting spoiled.
I agree that the Tamiya Su-122 and -85 are long past due for a re-tool, but I do not think that Tamiya will re-do them. We have a better chance at having DML toss in a sprue with a new superstructure and gun with their T-34 kit.
As far as the older Soviet stuff, the Mirage, RPM and Techmod stuff isn't really bad. It is not up to modern standards, but they can be built into decent models. That stuff is just not that popular for a big company to pick up the banner of being the "Tamiya" of Russian obscure (to us) armor.
I agree that the Tamiya Su-122 and -85 are long past due for a re-tool, but I do not think that Tamiya will re-do them. We have a better chance at having DML toss in a sprue with a new superstructure and gun with their T-34 kit.
As far as the older Soviet stuff, the Mirage, RPM and Techmod stuff isn't really bad. It is not up to modern standards, but they can be built into decent models. That stuff is just not that popular for a big company to pick up the banner of being the "Tamiya" of Russian obscure (to us) armor.
Linz
Australia
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 08:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Yes I found a store that had one left over Isu-152 and the JS-1 kit from dragon.m I wish they would do a SU-76 right!!!
Alan do a SU-76, also marketed by DML. Apparently its rather nice, needs a little work and isn't a shake and bake like some Tamiya kits, but still, a very nice one.
Cheers,
Linz
Linz
Australia
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 08:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I agree Denizen. Soviet armor is my favorite and it is rare to see Soviet kits. Like Linz pointed out, there are some kits out there, but compared to German subjects, Soviet vehicles have been relatively unexplored by the major manufacturers. I would like to see Tamiya or DML do some of the early war soviet vehicles such as the BT-5, BT-7, or a T-26. I know that there are kits out there of those vehicles (and they are pretty good), but I would like to see the big guys use their model making expertise to make a beautiful BT or T-26 kit.
There isn't may kits of anything compared to German subjets. Look at Sabot's posts re US AFVs. And anyhow, if there are pretty good kits out there already, why not build them? I personally don't give a rats who makes what, if there is a kit of something I want that is at least average, I'll use it.
For the tanks you mentioned specifically, the Zvezda BT series is apparently quite nice, as is the Eastern Express BT-7. Sure, the RPM T-26 is dodgy, but with the exception of some tight tracks, the Zvezda kit is brilliant. Add to the fact that Italeri boxes many Zvezda kits, and there you have a winner, as Italeri is more avaliable in the Western market.
Just because Tamiya or Dragon do not make a kit (and not all of theirs are perfect by a lonng stretch of the imagination) does not mean that there isn't an excellent kit out there. And if there is already, why bother duplicating them? Yes, it happens often (M26, M4, M1, PzKpfw IV, V, VI), but why tempt fate? After all, isn't there some demand for a good T-55 or Centurion?
Cheers,
Linz
avukich
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 07:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Just because Tamiya or Dragon do not make a kit (and not all of theirs are perfect by a lonng stretch of the imagination) does not mean that there isn't an excellent kit out there. And if there is already, why bother duplicating them? Yes, it happens often (M26, M4, M1, PzKpfw IV, V, VI), but why tempt fate? After all, isn't there some demand for a good T-55 or Centurion?
Don't get me wrong here. I've built the Italeri/Zvezda T-26, some of the old Mirage T-26s, the Italeri/Zvezda BT-5, a couple Eastern Express BT-7s, and even the horrible AER T-38. The reason that I want someone like Tamiya or DML to do one of those vehicles is that sometimes I like to take a break from the major TLC type of kits where you use more putty than plastic and you have to scratchbuild tons of stuff and do a nice easy build sort of kit like the newest offerings from Tamiya or DML where the kits practically fall together.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 07:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Alan do a SU-76, also marketed by DML. Apparently its rather nice, needs a little work and isn't a shake and bake like some Tamiya kits, but still, a very nice one.
Yow, Linz. Have you built this? If so, "needs a little work" is the biggest understatement I have read in a long time.
If you're more into building than modeling, avoid this kit. Nothing fits and most of the parts are WAY overscale (too thick and simplified). Now, if you want to model an SU-76, and have decent references as well as a good stock of styrene sheet, rod and strip, plus some scratchbuilding skills, you may want to attempt this build. The individual track links (once you figure out how to carve them from the sprue without breaking them) have guide horns that are too tight to fit the road wheels. You have to either widen the gap in the tracks (what I did by shaving and test fitting each link) or make the road wheels narrower (got a lathe?). The SU-76 was nicknamed "Suka" -- Russian for "Bitch." This kit is definitely a Suka to build.
As for the availablity of Russian/Soviet WWII armor kits, they are out there -- if you're willing to look and do a little modeling. Some of them may seem crude, but remember the real things were pretty crude. Most only need a little TLC and some aftermarket tracks.
sgtreef
Oklahoma, United States
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 08:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAlan do a SU-76, also marketed by DML. Apparently its rather nice, needs a little work and isn't a shake and bake like some Tamiya kits, but still, a very nice one.
Yow, Linz. Have you built this? If so, "needs a little work" is the biggest understatement I have read in a long time.
If you're more into building than modeling, avoid this kit. Nothing fits and most of the parts are WAY overscale (too thick and simplified). Now, if you want to model an SU-76, and have decent references as well as a good stock of styrene sheet, rod and strip, plus some scratchbuilding skills, you may want to attempt this build. The individual track links (once you figure out how to carve them from the sprue without breaking them) have guide horns that are too tight to fit the road wheels. You have to either widen the gap in the tracks (what I did by shaving and test fitting each link) or make the road wheels narrower (got a lathe?). The SU-76 was nicknamed "Suka" -- Russian for "Bitch." This kit is definitely a Suka to build.
As for the availablity of Russian/Soviet WWII armor kits, they are out there -- if you're willing to look and do a little modeling. Some of them may seem crude, but remember the real things were pretty crude. Most only need a little TLC and some aftermarket tracks.
Got that RIGHT Take a look at my pics folderhttp://community.webshots.com/user/reef12 To see what Hollowpoint says is true 5 months have gone into this thing and just about nearing the light at the end of the tunnel. #:-) #:-) #:-)
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 08:20 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Got that RIGHT Take a look at my pics folderhttp://community.webshots.com/user/reef12 To see what Hollowpoint says is true 5 months have gone into this thing and just about nearing the light at the end of the tunnel.
Way to go, Jeff.
For those who do not realize what Jeff's photos show -- the dark gray plastic is from the kit. Everything else is added from scratch. Those also look like aftermarket tracks, right? You took this a little farther than I did. I kept more of the original kit hull -- but often wish I had replaced more of it.
Again, hats off to you, Jeff
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 08:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Don't get me wrong here. I've built the Italeri/Zvezda T-26, some of the old Mirage T-26s, the Italeri/Zvezda BT-5, a couple Eastern Express BT-7s, and even the horrible AER T-38. The reason that I want someone like Tamiya or DML to do one of those vehicles is that sometimes I like to take a break from the major TLC type of kits where you use more putty than plastic and you have to scratchbuild tons of stuff and do a nice easy build sort of kit like the newest offerings from Tamiya or DML where the kits practically fall together.
So true I agree 100% on this. As to the SU-76 which was after the T/34 the most produced TD for the Russians. Why does not tamiya build one.
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 08:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I've got to go with Linz, there are more Soviet TDs than US TDs. I have the Tamiya SU-122 and SU-85 (old kits) as well as a DML ISU-152. The ISU-152 is a rather nice kit. There are also several Russian made kits in 1/30 scale of various Soviet TDs.
Don't count the ISU-152 as it was really considered a Heavy assult gun as was the ISU-122. Got to have that suka in front of it. So this leaves the 2 SUs the 122 and 85 plus I forgot about the Dragon SU-100 .Okay three compared to how many Amercian ones?
avukich
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 08:54 PM UTC
The SU-122 wasn't a TD either, it was an assault gun mounting a 122mm short barreled howitzer. So now we have the Tamiya SU-85 and the DML SU-100.
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 09:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextGot that RIGHT Take a look at my pics folderhttp://community.webshots.com/user/reef12 To see what Hollowpoint says is true 5 months have gone into this thing and just about nearing the light at the end of the tunnel.
Way to go, Jeff.
For those who do not realize what Jeff's photos show -- the dark gray plastic is from the kit. Everything else is added from scratch. Those also look like aftermarket tracks, right? You took this a little farther than I did. I kept more of the original kit hull -- but often wish I had replaced more of it.
Again, hats off to you, Jeff
MY lower hull was white I did clean it up and flatten and fill all the sink holes add rivets where needed. But it is kit parts on that and some of upper hull the same,But EVERY stinking part from the wheels to the jack needs TLC not cut part of sprue hit it a little with the sandpaper and glue away not on this S.O.B !! But it has been a real challenge have two of these kits next one will be the larger door version next year sometime want a shake and bake on the next dozen kits And yes they are Friul tracks. Replaced just about everthing else on this thing . Wish they had a detail kit for the gun next time I will replace gun with a Zis-3Sh. And I think I will do an article on this monstrosity of plastic
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 09:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The SU-122 wasn't a TD either, it was an assault gun mounting a 122mm short barreled howitzer. So now we have the Tamiya SU-85 and the DML SU-100.
Okay I can go along with that thinking. Have you seen this site Adam.
http://www.battlefield.ru/specific.html
Linz
Australia
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 09:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAlan do a SU-76, also marketed by DML. Apparently its rather nice, needs a little work and isn't a shake and bake like some Tamiya kits, but still, a very nice one.
Yow, Linz. Have you built this? If so, "needs a little work" is the biggest understatement I have read in a long time.
No, hence the use of apparently . I was just going off a couple of reviews that I'd found, plus what Cookie Sewell had written.
Cheers,
Linz
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 09:19 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextAlan do a SU-76, also marketed by DML. Apparently its rather nice, needs a little work and isn't a shake and bake like some Tamiya kits, but still, a very nice one.
Yow, Linz. Have you built this? If so, "needs a little work" is the biggest understatement I have read in a long time.
No, hence the use of apparently . I was just going off a couple of reviews that I'd found, plus what Cookie Sewell had written.
Cheers,
Linz
With TLC you can get a pretty good model out of it but don't expect to build this in a weekend . It is close to orginial one in looks have not measured it but then again I am not to much of a nut and bolt counter. Now if you really want to see a kit that is not close at all grab the Sherdian from either Tamiya or Academy now their is a total hull rebuild
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 09:24 PM UTC
Nice models there Adam I liked that M-41 are those the new tracks from AFV club if not Great Job of painting !!
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 09:39 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Jeff, great job on that SU-76, you really put a lot of work into it. As far as US WW2 tank destroyers, before the AFV Club and Academy Hellcat and the AFV Club and Academy M-10 (and derivitives like Achilles), there were only four US tank destroyers in total kit form (not counting conversions like the 75mm half-track). Two of the three, the Tamiya M-10 and M-36 Jackson are more nostalgic pieces than accurate representations. The other two are the Testors/Italeri M36B1 Jackson on the M4A3 chassis and the old Anti-Tank Dodge. I will admit that now US TD fans have much to look forward to with a Jackson being done on the horizon (and the variant someone can kit-bash by mounting it on an M4 chassis). But this took a long time in coming. I remember snatching up the Tamiy M-36 reissue a few years ago and thinking about all the neat things I was going to do with it. Then the M-18 and M-10 hit the shelves and the Jackson is just another kit that may never be built.Don't count the ISU-152 as it was really considered a Heavy assult gun as was the ISU-122. Got to have that suka in front of it. So this leaves the 2 SUs the 122 and 85 plus I forgot about the Dragon SU-100 .Okay three compared to how many Amercian ones?
I'm just glad that we now have access to all those Eastern European kits that give us the ability to model relatively obscure Russian and Polish armor. BTW, is the support roller set by Model Point a good deal for the Toga ASU-57?
avukich
Virginia, United States
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2002 - 09:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Okay I can go along with that thinking. Have you seen this site Adam.
http://www.battlefield.ru/specific.html
Yes, Jeff I've seen the site. It is a really great site for references on Soviet equipment.
Quoted Text
Nice models there Adam I liked that M-41 are those the new tracks from AFV club if not Great Job of painting !!
Thanks for the compliments. Those are the original kit tracks. The AFV Club tracks hadn't been announced when I did my M-41 and I didn't know about the excellent Armor Track Models tracks until about 1 week after I had finished the kit.
sgtreef
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Posted: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 08:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextJeff, great job on that SU-76, you really put a lot of work into it. As far as US WW2 tank destroyers, before the AFV Club and Academy Hellcat and the AFV Club and Academy M-10 (and derivitives like Achilles), there were only four US tank destroyers in total kit form (not counting conversions like the 75mm half-track). Two of the three, the Tamiya M-10 and M-36 Jackson are more nostalgic pieces than accurate representations. The other two are the Testors/Italeri M36B1 Jackson on the M4A3 chassis and the old Anti-Tank Dodge. I will admit that now US TD fans have much to look forward to with a Jackson being done on the horizon (and the variant someone can kit-bash by mounting it on an M4 chassis). But this took a long time in coming. I remember snatching up the Tamiy M-36 reissue a few years ago and thinking about all the neat things I was going to do with it. Then the M-18 and M-10 hit the shelves and the Jackson is just another kit that may never be built.Don't count the ISU-152 as it was really considered a Heavy assult gun as was the ISU-122. Got to have that suka in front of it. So this leaves the 2 SUs the 122 and 85 plus I forgot about the Dragon SU-100 .Okay three compared to how many Amercian ones?
I'm just glad that we now have access to all those Eastern European kits that give us the ability to model relatively obscure Russian and Polish armor. BTW, is the support roller set by Model Point a good deal for the Toga ASU-57?
Thanks Rob on the SU. But I still wish Tamiya would do one instead of the Rumor of a Hummel early, another German One . Don't need another German vehicle
Posted: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 11:49 AM UTC
use the Russian word *Zverdoy*, it means animal hunter in Russian. use the cyrillic alphabet and put it on a IS-2 or IS-3. hand painting would be better.