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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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How to build a reasonably accurate Jumbo...
TankDan
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 05:50 AM UTC

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Maybe late with this post, but for the money and time just purchase the Asuka kit. You won't be disappointed.


Thanks Tom. I think the Asuka is the same kit as the Tasca Jumbo, at least the box art is identical. I've heard rave reviews about this kit, and it looks like a nice piece, its just out of my price range. Maybe not for a Soviet IS-7 or a nice King Tiger kit, but for a Sherman Jumbo I just cant justify $55-$70. I'll toil on my crappy Tamiya, but thanks for the input!
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 07:24 AM UTC

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I'm asking for assistance. I'm asking for measurements of a "good" (accurate) turret so that I can make my own, or modify the kit one to work.


Look . . . The shape is wrong. You would have to completely construct a new turret shell, cut the details off the Tamiya turret and put them in the correct places on your new shell. A few dimensions or three view drawings aren't going to help you.


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I don't know if it cant be fixed. Am I supposed to take your word for it?


Good point. I'm just some guy on the internet.


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. . . All anyone can say is "it cant be done", spend your money on something that's already done so you don't have to do any work" . . . I recognize reworking the Tamiya kit wont be easy...that's one reason I took it on. I don't need to be told how difficult or "impossible" it is...I'll figure that part out on my own. All I need are numbers.


I didn't. I said that if you can't tell by looking at the available references how wrong it is, the changes probably are not worth your time and you ought to just use the Tamiya turret. If you don't realize that defining the turret's shape requires much, much, more than just some numbers and dimensions, I don't know how anyone here can help you.

KL
m4sherman
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 08:46 AM UTC

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Maybe late with this post, but for the money and time just purchase the Asuka kit. You won't be disappointed.


Thanks Tom. I think the Asuka is the same kit as the Tasca Jumbo, at least the box art is identical. I've heard rave reviews about this kit, and it looks like a nice piece, its just out of my price range. Maybe not for a Soviet IS-7 or a nice King Tiger kit, but for a Sherman Jumbo I just cant justify $55-$70. I'll toil on my crappy Tamiya, but thanks for the input!


Dan,

I made the Tank Workshop M4A3E2 conversion using the old Tamiya kit as a base, sometime around 1993 or 94. I did the best I could with the information I had at the time, and a series of pictures of a Jumbo taken in the 1980's. I made some mistakes, but I was working long before the internet, and did not have a tank I could see for myself.

The turret required a lot of work, but if you want the challenge, and the incredible frustration involved, it can be done. I don't think there are any plans or drawings out there except what is already published. None of the line drawings available in the 90's were 100% accurate anyhow.

Your best bet is to google the M4A3E2 and study the pictures. That is the best advice I can give you. There are more and better pictures on the internet right now than I had in every book on the tank or in the pictures I was loaned when I made my masters.

Good luck with your E2,
Randy
Cantstopbuyingkits
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 04:32 PM UTC

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Maybe late with this post, but for the money and time just purchase the Asuka kit. You won't be disappointed.


Maybe not for a Soviet IS-7 or a nice King Tiger kit, but for a Sherman Jumbo I just cant justify $55-$70.


HLJ has it in stock for 4,560 yen which work out as roughly $37.99.
barrowb98
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 10:32 PM UTC

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@TankDan:
Here's an article with fixes for the base Tamiya M4A3 kit
http://www.usarmymodels.com/MANUFACTURERS/Tamiya/tamiya35122.html The article is dated and many more aftermarket corrections exist if you want to go that route. The hull dimensions are fine.

The biggest issues with the Jumbo are the inaccurate transmission housing and the shape of the turret. You can probably source those by putting up requests on various AFV classified pages. I'm sure lots of guys got turret and Jumbo trans replacement parts way back in the day but never used them. I'm sure there are good numbers of them sitting in dark boxes on guys' shelves and they'd be happy to sell them to you for a few bucks.

Before the Blast and Formations conversions and the Tasca kit, this is how people modeled the M4A3E2


Thanks Roy! Wow...someone with constructive advice! I have seen this article you linked to, and it's a great source. It at least points out the problems with the kit and offers some advice. I know Steve Zaloga also wrote an article in a 2002 publication where he detailed his construction and accurizing of this kit, but I cant seem to find it anywhere.


He scratchbuilt a new turret, he didn't fix the Tamiya. I vaguely remember that article, IIRC he carved the new turret out of renshape. There's some more photos at Missing Lynx http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/usa/szjumbo.htm
TankDan
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 05:33 AM UTC

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Look . . . The shape is wrong. You would have to completely construct a new turret shell, cut the details off the Tamiya turret and put them in the correct places on your new shell. A few dimensions or three view drawings aren't going to help you.



Good point. I'm just some guy on the internet.



I didn't. I said that if you can't tell by looking at the available references how wrong it is, the changes probably are not worth your time and you ought to just use the Tamiya turret. If you don't realize that defining the turret's shape requires much, much, more than just some numbers and dimensions, I don't know how anyone here can help you.

KL


Your exact words were: YOU CANT FIX IT. Sounds like "it cant be done" to me.
Yes, I can fix it, either by reshaping the original turret or by scratchbuilding a new one. And yes, with numbers and drawings I can do it. How do you think manufacturing works? Why do we have draftsmen? I've rebuilt/scratched turrets before (Tamiya Panther in the link in previous post), nothing different or more difficult here.

And yes, you are just some guy on the internet.

TankDan
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 05:37 AM UTC
Randy and Roy, thank you for the information, and making an effort to help me. I know it can be done with some work. And honestly its the kind of work I enjoy. I don't get this attitude that some modelers don't even want to try...they just want to buy a kit and squirt paint on it. Thank you for the assistance and efforts.

Tim, thanks for the heads up. That's for sure the best price I've seen on the Tasca.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 06:06 AM UTC

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Your exact words were: YOU CANT FIX IT. Sounds like "it cant be done" to me.


That's only part of it. I never suggested that you buy an aftermarket item. That's what I didn't say.


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Yes, I can fix it, either by reshaping the original turret or by scratchbuilding a new one.


When your final product no longer contains anything from the original it not what most people would call a "repair" or "fixing". It's a replacement. . . . Like buying a resin part or a turret sprue from Asuka.


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And yes, with numbers and drawings I can do it. How do you think manufacturing works? Why do we have draftsmen? I've rebuilt/scratched turrets before (Tamiya Panther in the link in previous post), nothing different or more difficult here.


Great. I'm sure you'll do just fine with some "measurements" off an existing kit part, and maybe some three-views taken from the internet.


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And yes, you are just some guy on the internet.


You forgot to add ". . . who knows nothing about Shermans."

KL
ericadeane
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 06:53 AM UTC
Dan: Correcting a Panther turret and scratchbuilding a Jumbo turret are two different animals. Like I said, put up a request post and get a replacement turret for $5.

To me, my modelling time is more precious than a few dollars. My time is limited. I rely constantly on advice from guys like Kurt (who, by the way isn't just some guy on the internet -- if you check his publications, you'll see his name on the byline of the most up-to-date Sherman publication extant: Ampersand's "Son of Sherman, Vol 1" --- Kurt (and I'll embarrass him here) is Sherman knowledge royalty)).

If you read his posts, you'll see he's not telling you fundamentally different info than what I've said . I'm glad you'll enjoy fixing the Tamiya hull. But I wouldn't wish that proposed turret scratching on anyone -- and I consider myself pretty fearless as far as scratchbuilding goes. For $5-10 -- I snag up that resin piece.

Or reward yourself. Skip lunches for a week and order an Asuka Jumbo. Truly, they are GEMS -- absolutely enjoyable kits.

M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 06:59 AM UTC

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@TankDan:
Here's an article with fixes for the base Tamiya M4A3 kit
http://www.usarmymodels.com/MANUFACTURERS/Tamiya/tamiya35122.html The article is dated and many more aftermarket corrections exist if you want to go that route. The hull dimensions are fine.

The biggest issues with the Jumbo are the inaccurate transmission housing and the shape of the turret. You can probably source those by putting up requests on various AFV classified pages. I'm sure lots of guys got turret and Jumbo trans replacement parts way back in the day but never used them. I'm sure there are good numbers of them sitting in dark boxes on guys' shelves and they'd be happy to sell them to you for a few bucks.

Before the Blast and Formations conversions and the Tasca kit, this is how people modeled the M4A3E2


Thanks Roy! Wow...someone with constructive advice! I have seen this article you linked to, and it's a great source. It at least points out the problems with the kit and offers some advice. I know Steve Zaloga also wrote an article in a 2002 publication where he detailed his construction and accurizing of this kit, but I cant seem to find it anywhere.


I AGREE with the constructive advice that our fellow modellers have contributed to this blog. My only other comment would be to save yourself the time, aggravation, and the wait-time for the other stuff to get to your home. IMO, you'd be happier to buy the TASCA Jumbo. Believe me, I've gone the TANK WORKSHOP, FORMATIONS, and BLAST routes- ALL will give you a NICE Jumbo, but for sheer ease, my TASCA Jumbo gave me the most satisfaction upon completion, if only because of the ease and time I needed to put into it's construction, detailing, painting, and the light weathering job.

My Jumbo is depicted as a "nearly new" vehicle, "tied-down" on my TAMIYA M26 "Dragon Wagon" Tractor/Trailer combo, late Autumn, Europe, 1944... The M26, of course is necessarily more heavily weathered.

I LOVE WWII US/Allied stuff, especially when I can combine a tank with a soft-skin for a display...
TankDan
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 07:18 AM UTC
Here we go....this guy has the guts...http://s3.zetaboards.com/locate_and_cement/topic/7592082/1/
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 03:22 PM UTC
If you wish to get the Steve Zaloga article it was from a 2002 Military Modelling - Vol 32 No 4 April 2004 .
Cheers
Al
TankDan
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 11:13 PM UTC
Thanks Al Bowie. I've been looking for this article/issue but no luck so far. I'll keep looking.

To Kurt, you are correct in that you did not suggest I buy an aftermarket turret, others did and I lumped you in with that response. And I partially agree on your point about at what point the turret reconstruction remains repair or is considered replacement. And I'm sorry I missed the "Sherman Expert Of The Universe" in your signature. Still just some dude on the 'net as far as I'm concerned. Sorry...that's the way it is with technology today.

Roy, I agree the Panther turret is a far cry simpler than the Jumbo turret, but not impossible. And I'm not disputing what anyone says about the Tasca/Asuka kits; I believe they are top-notch and probably the best bang for the buck. But I have this crappy Tamiya, bought and paid for. Considering that 99% of the people who will ever see my finished model wont know that its a Sherman, much less an M4, much less an M4A3E2, I'm not going to sink another $?? into another Jumbo, especially when the Tamiya offers the exact kind of challenges I enjoy. My modeling time is short and important to me too...if I get 40 hours a year I'd be lucky. But it isn't just about finishing a kit in that time for me, in fact I haven't truly finished a kit in years. Its about the experience in that time, and coming away feeling like I accomplished something more than following someone else's directions. It doesn't even matter to me if its 100% accurate. I want the experience of making it more accurate than it was, and when someone who DOES know what they are looking at sees it and says, "theres no way that's the crappy old Tamiya kit!", I get the satisfaction I'm looking for. I hate the attitude that people think they know what I want, or know what will make me happy in my hobby. In my OP my question wasn't "whats the easiest way to build an accurate Jumbo", it was "whats the correct info to fix the Tamiya kit". I'm not asking for anyones first-born here. Just a little objective reasoning.
OddBall84
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Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 12:30 AM UTC
I'd say scrap the transmission part of the Tamiya and stick a Formations transmission on plus their sponson plates for starters, that already fixes an important part of where Tamiya is lacking in detail and don't forget to order some mounting bolts for where transmission and lower hull meet. Aftermarket exhaust diffusers plus tracks and it already looks worlds better.
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 04:23 AM UTC

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Thanks Al Bowie. I've been looking for this article/issue but no luck so far. I'll keep looking.


Drop me an email in a private message through this forum and I'll send you a scan of the MM article. There was also a very old Finescale Modeller article on modelling a Jumbo from the original M4A3 kit with templates for the Armour for the transmission (Mar/Apr 85 issue ) . I may have this somewhere at home and will look for the diagrams. It will certainly give a lot of modelling pleasure as there is so much to do to the Tamiya kit.

You may find this link to a pdf of the Osprey title on Modelling the Sherman Vol 1 very useful:
http://lalegion-pictures.com/media/pdf/Osprey%20-%20Modelling%20035%20-%20The%20Us%20Army%20M4%20(75mm)%20Sherman%20Medium%20Tank.pdf


Cheers
Al
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 06:00 AM UTC

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To Kurt . . . And I'm sorry I missed the "Sherman Expert Of The Universe" in your signature. Still just some dude on the 'net as far as I'm concerned.


I made no such claim, nor anything close. I was just highlighting that you just can't act like everyone else on Earth is a [auto-censored]ing idiot, and that sometimes the advice that galls you the most might actually be correct and helpful.

KL
ShermiesRule
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2015 - 10:26 AM UTC
Tankdan

If you are going to try and somehow rebend or reshape the original Tamiya Jumbo or manufacture a brnad new one yourself, please take plenty of pictures and document. You could be a hero for taking on the sadistic task but if successful would be quite an achievement others would like to follow.

I myself know car gearheads with incredible skill and tools who can design, created and manufacture their own parts when it's much easier to go to the local auto parts store and buy one. Therefore I can understand the focus on "doing it yourself" even if it's not the most efficient method.
MCR
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2015 - 07:23 PM UTC
TD, I vaguely recall and article (may have been in an old IPMS mag? Military Modeller?) where someone attempted to correct the Tamiya E2 turret by cutting it into several sections, rearranging it into something closer dimensionally to what it should be, filling the gaps with plastic stock, and finishing off with epoxy. As I recall it ended up looking pretty good. A lot of work but if that's your thing it could be fun.
A friend of mine did a conversion starting with the Italeri M4A1 turret, adding layers of sheet plastic then filing and sanding to shape. I think he used the drawings in the Hunnicutt Sherman book as his reference.
As for me, I went the lazy route and bought the turret and transmission cover sprues from Taska, I think together they were something less that 20 bucks including shipping.
Good luck with your project. I'd love to see what you come up with.
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