Was the Dragon Wagon capable of hauling the M26 Pershing? From research I have done up to this point, the Dragon Wagon is the largest tank transporter we had.
I am wanting to build both Tamiya kits and place the M26 on the trailer of the Dragon Wagon but want to be sure I am not out of line.
I hope someone can help with this. Thanks!!
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Dragon Wagon/M26 Pershing question.....
sgtsauer
#065
Joined: March 30, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 10:42 AM UTC
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
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Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 04:41 PM UTC
Hmmm...while the Dragon Wagon boasted a loading capacity of 40 tons, the M26 weighed in at 42 tons... 
If the numbers tell the story, I would have to say no.
If the numbers tell the story, I would have to say no.
ukgeoff
Joined: May 03, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 05:33 PM UTC
Maybe not Ken. The British Scammell Pioneer was rated at 30 tons but was still capable of carrying the Churchill weighing in at 39 tons, at least in an emergency.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 06:27 PM UTC
Probably done in a pinch. I know in today's Army, the M88A1 was not supposed to pull an M1/M1A1 without a braking vehicle. In 15 years of active duty, I never saw a braking vehicle being used. (Braking vehicle is a second M88 or M1 hooked behind the inoperable one in order to act as a brake so the heavier inoperable M1 didn't push the M88 down a hill.)
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 07:33 PM UTC
The above are correct to a point. Dragon Wagon with M-15 trailer was only rated at 40 tons. At the end of WW2, US Army saw the need for a heavier transporter to haul newer and heavier tanks. In stead of coming up with an entirely new vehicle, the M-15 trailer was upgraded to an M-15A1 capable of carrying 50 tons. This same trailer was used through the early 1970's with different tractors, particularly the M123A1C Mack 10-ton tractor. An M46 on a Dragon Wagon with an M-15A1 trailer would be correct. There is actually a file in the photo references here of an M47 Patton on an M-15A1 trailer behind an M-26 tractor.
M-15A1
And the dragon Wagon to go with it.
M-26
Hope this answers your question.
M-15A1
And the dragon Wagon to go with it.
M-26
Hope this answers your question.
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 07:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The above are correct to a point. Dragon Wagon with M-15 trailer was only rated at 40 tons. At the end of WW2, US Army saw the need for a heavier transporter to haul newer and heavier tanks. In stead of coming up with an entirely new vehicle, the M-15 trailer was upgraded to an M-15A1 capable of carrying 50 tons. This same trailer was used through the early 1970's with different tractors, particularly the M123A1C Mack 10-ton tractor. An M46 on a Dragon Wagon with an M-15A1 trailer would be correct. There is actually a file in the photo references here of an M47 Patton on an M-15A1 trailer behind an M-26 tractor.
M-15A1
And the dragon Wagon to go with it.
M-26
Hope this answers your question.
Is this the model Shep Paine did so many moons ago?
Hollowpoint
Joined: January 24, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 07:59 PM UTC
Gino is dead-on right.
The M15A1 trailer was built specifically for hauling the Pershing. The biggest difference was that the bed was reinforced (note in the photos the ovals in the bed sides -- the tool bins are gone) and the ramps over the trailer's tires. This is the trailer Shep Paine builds n his book "Modeling Tanks and Military Vehicles, "and is also shown in both editions of "How to Build Dioramas."
The first combat Pershings, the 20 T-26E3s used in the Zebra Mission, were hauled from the port to the front on modified M15 trailers -- the single, rather dark photo in Hunnicutt's Pershing book appears to be an M15 trailer with ramps added over the tires.
The M15A1 trailer was built specifically for hauling the Pershing. The biggest difference was that the bed was reinforced (note in the photos the ovals in the bed sides -- the tool bins are gone) and the ramps over the trailer's tires. This is the trailer Shep Paine builds n his book "Modeling Tanks and Military Vehicles, "and is also shown in both editions of "How to Build Dioramas."
The first combat Pershings, the 20 T-26E3s used in the Zebra Mission, were hauled from the port to the front on modified M15 trailers -- the single, rather dark photo in Hunnicutt's Pershing book appears to be an M15 trailer with ramps added over the tires.
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 08:17 PM UTC
But as A mechanic in the military and in a pinch we would kind of break any known rule to get the job done within reason of safety for the personal of cause 
. We pulled an M-48 tank out once in Korea that was stuck up to its fenders in Monsoon rain Mud using 2 D8 Ks and another M-48 God was that driver pissed. Actually it might of been M-48A5 version not for sure as if I remember the military was having problems with the updates to the M-60 series at the time. So as A Comabt Engineer we would do anything to get the vehicle out of their,don't know if the Military has changed in the 25 years since then in the way they do things.
. We pulled an M-48 tank out once in Korea that was stuck up to its fenders in Monsoon rain Mud using 2 D8 Ks and another M-48 God was that driver pissed. Actually it might of been M-48A5 version not for sure as if I remember the military was having problems with the updates to the M-60 series at the time. So as A Comabt Engineer we would do anything to get the vehicle out of their,don't know if the Military has changed in the 25 years since then in the way they do things.
pascalbausset
Joined: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Friday, August 16, 2002 - 03:57 AM UTC
Hi,
The up grade M15 trailer is the M15A2 (post war).
The M15 A1 is the same as the M15 minor the rear ramps. They permit the tanks to roll on ramps and not no the tyres.
regards.
pb
The up grade M15 trailer is the M15A2 (post war).
The M15 A1 is the same as the M15 minor the rear ramps. They permit the tanks to roll on ramps and not no the tyres.
regards.
pb
pascalbausset
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 1,416 posts
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Posted: Friday, August 16, 2002 - 04:11 AM UTC
I see the pics in the gallery.
Pics 2 and 15 see the reenforcement that can recogngnise a M15A2 trailer !!
Pics 2 and 15 see the reenforcement that can recogngnise a M15A2 trailer !!
AVRE165
Joined: December 31, 2002
KitMaker: 181 posts
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Posted: Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 11:56 PM UTC
hi
i was lucky couple of years ago to actualy see a M15 which had been converted. it had a manufactures plate sayng it had been built as a M15 then had been converted to a M15A1
http://tanxheaven.com/m15a1/CNV00017.JPG
now if you look at this website you will see my close ups of it
http://tanxheaven.com/m15a1/m15a1.htm
the one in the previous post is a M15A2 this is a post war version.
reason i went looking for this i want to build the picture on page 167 Hunnicuts book Pershing where the T92 is being loaded on to a Dragon Wagon.
hope this helps ossie
i was lucky couple of years ago to actualy see a M15 which had been converted. it had a manufactures plate sayng it had been built as a M15 then had been converted to a M15A1
http://tanxheaven.com/m15a1/CNV00017.JPG
now if you look at this website you will see my close ups of it
http://tanxheaven.com/m15a1/m15a1.htm
the one in the previous post is a M15A2 this is a post war version.
reason i went looking for this i want to build the picture on page 167 Hunnicuts book Pershing where the T92 is being loaded on to a Dragon Wagon.
hope this helps ossie
StukeSowle
Joined: November 08, 2002
KitMaker: 599 posts
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Posted: Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 01:52 AM UTC
Like said, in a pinch anything goes. While in Korea, we had an 88 that was towing a Bradley that could not for the life of it, get up an ice covered hill. So, they hooked up the 88 to my M1 and I hauled them both up the dang hill.
I've got a pic somewhere in the boxes downstairs.......
I've got a pic somewhere in the boxes downstairs.......
straightedge
Joined: January 18, 2004
KitMaker: 1,352 posts
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Posted: Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 02:26 AM UTC
A couple tons isn't going to make much difference one way or the other in an emergency situation, it would be day after day of constant abuse that would break a truck or trailer down, the military especially way under rates their equipment cause of the off road use, you bet if they had a dragon wagon, and the Pershing needed hauled, they would use it, cause they know it could hold way more then it says. For everyday use like that then it would need some minor modifications, look you are talking about the weight of less then what one tire holds up, think about it.
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 06:53 AM UTC
OK now to answer the next question. Building /finding an M-15a1 trailer. I have seen an update/modification kit advertised for the Tamiya kit. Don't remember who or where but probably Fine Models or Tank Workshop. Check out Great MOdels, Mission Hobbies, or Roll MOdels. The other way to go is the way I did which is to find the Peerless Max Dragon Wagon kit on ebay for a cheap price. The Tractor is useless, but with a set of Tank Workshop Dragon Wagon resin wheels, the trailer is great. Got mine behind an M123c tractor with an M-60 round turret on it. Check out my gallery
MrRoo
Joined: October 07, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 08:48 AM UTC
Real models does a conversion kit for the trailer
stugiiif
Joined: December 13, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 11:33 AM UTC
Just to add on to Mr.Roo's comments Real Models also does a couple of other resin bit for the Dragon Wagon to include a full engine and compartment and they jut recently released a soft cab conversion for the tractor unit. I can say that the conversion for the Trailer is relativly simple but you will need referecne photos to complete the trailer kit. The converions it's elf has some of the worst instructions I have seen for a conversion set. But, at the same time I recommend this set to anyone wanting build a late (for WW2) or modern (Korea and Vietnam) transport trailer. I again say Thanks to Mr. Roo for getting me this conversion set. STUG 
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 08, 2004 - 09:17 AM UTC
Joining the thread late...
I have the Tank Workshop M15A1 Semi-Trailer. This is a nice kit, but really difficult to obtain. I got mine fishing at e-Bay, and one pops up every now and then...
Concerning the capabilities of the original Dragon Wagon - truckers recount that if you could get an item up onto the semi-trailer's flatbed - the truck could haul it. Though officially rated at 40 tons, it is reported that the M26 and M26A1 was able to haul upwards of 100,000 pounds. Naturally, this is on improved roads and not cross-country jaunts. The rig was limited more by the material handling equipment needed to get a load up on it, rather than the truck's ability to transport it.
Many of the wartime surplus rigs went to the DOE (Department of Energy) and got repainted (yellow) and pressed into duty in transporting the large and outsided components for early atomic and nuclear weapons effects tests. If you're not familiar with these efforts, the equipment used in the early programs weighed a considerable amount. In some cases more than a medium combat tank.
Gunnie
I have the Tank Workshop M15A1 Semi-Trailer. This is a nice kit, but really difficult to obtain. I got mine fishing at e-Bay, and one pops up every now and then...
Concerning the capabilities of the original Dragon Wagon - truckers recount that if you could get an item up onto the semi-trailer's flatbed - the truck could haul it. Though officially rated at 40 tons, it is reported that the M26 and M26A1 was able to haul upwards of 100,000 pounds. Naturally, this is on improved roads and not cross-country jaunts. The rig was limited more by the material handling equipment needed to get a load up on it, rather than the truck's ability to transport it.
Many of the wartime surplus rigs went to the DOE (Department of Energy) and got repainted (yellow) and pressed into duty in transporting the large and outsided components for early atomic and nuclear weapons effects tests. If you're not familiar with these efforts, the equipment used in the early programs weighed a considerable amount. In some cases more than a medium combat tank.
Gunnie
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 08, 2004 - 10:00 AM UTC
M15A1 is not that difficult to convert from the Tamiya M15. I am just about done with my M123A1C w/M15A1 scratch/conversion project. The trailer was pretty easy, the only hard part was getting the curve right on the ramps over the wheels. Here it is before thje ramps. 
I should have some completed photos up soon.
I should have some completed photos up soon.
pascalbausset
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 1,416 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 08, 2004 - 09:40 PM UTC
Hi to allhere is a pic from French military archives :
This a M25 US tank transporte (M26 + M15A1) hauling a M47 patton from French army in 1959 near Rastatt (Germany).
The pic came from the book "Charge Utile hors serie : Les matériels allemands des FFA"
Enjoy
Cheers
pascal
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 02:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"....Many of the wartime surplus rigs went to the DOE (Department of Energy) and got repainted (yellow) and pressed into duty in transporting the large and outsided components for early atomic and nuclear weapons effects tests....."
How come I knew our good Gunnie would figure out some way to sneak in a mention of "atomic" age equipment???
#:-) #:-) #:-) You rascal....
Tread.
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 03:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text"....Many of the wartime surplus rigs went to the DOE (Department of Energy) and got repainted (yellow) and pressed into duty in transporting the large and outsided components for early atomic and nuclear weapons effects tests....."
How come I knew our good Gunnie would figure out some way to sneak in a mention of "atomic" age equipment???
You rascal....
Tread.
Just trying to broaden the horizons of knowledge here...
Gunnie
Massimo
Joined: July 12, 2004
KitMaker: 5 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 02:39 AM UTC
Yes, with M15A1 trailer.
Massimo
Massimo
mikeli125
Joined: December 24, 2002
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Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 05:43 AM UTC
isnt there a picture some were of a dronwgon or similar with a KT on board now if that can haul one of them surely a pershing would be ok on occasions, I thinkk what straightedge was implying that the trailer could support say 45 tonnes but a safe working load of 40 giving oyu a 5 tonne margin built in
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, July 12, 2004 - 06:14 AM UTC
Curious as to why a post with a question that was originally asked and answered almost 2 years ago keeps getting answered again and again with the same answer.
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