Here's my problem :
I was talking this afternoon with a fellow modeller who has started a "Rhine crossing project" that includes of course a Dragon Wagon loaded with a LCM3 (I'm sure he's not the only one ).I assured him that I would find some good reference pics online for him, thanks to Armorama (maybe I have been a bit overconfident ) .My friend already has the MMiR issue pictures...

Please don't let me down, my credibility is at stake !

Frenchy

What's your email Frenchy?

Here are some pics from my project :







pascal

Well Pascal, I hope you have enough space on your shelf for such a rig ! My friend is looking for some pics of the modifications that may had been done to the trailer to carry the LCM...
Good luck with your project

Frenchy

There weren't any mods done, they just put themon thick wood blocks. I will send those pics tongiht.

Rob

How did they get that monster on and off? I would assume cranes at the port to put it on, but in a combat zone or out in the field. Did those Shermans with the carane attachments have enough juice to take it off? All and all, a most interesting diorama idea

The only "mod" to the Dragon Wagon was to remove the ramps from the back of the trailer & store them up on the neck.

Pascal, I note your in-progress model still has the ramps on ?

Also Pascal, I note you have the Platform Drop Skids (the two long wood pieces) standing up -- they would have been laid down to form a floor & then large (6"x6" ??) blocks used to build up a base for the LCM to sit on. It would not have rested on the gooseneck.

In the couple pix I have seen of loading them, the DW was backed up to a river/canal. The LCM was run up against the edge of the canal & a large crane (no, not a recovery vehicle -- it needed more oomph & length) lifted the LCM up & partly out over the DW trailer. I suspect the DW winches then helped pull it forward while the crane kept it up.

Unsure how they got 'em off -- doubt if was what we called "combat offload" (back up fast & slam on brakes). Possibly same way using crane & some boat on water to provide pull off. ??

I am really curious if the RB17 crawler-crane from Accurate Armor could do the job & if so, is it worth it to me (ie, will wife find out) to spend $300 on it just so I can do a loading diorama.

I already have the DW kit, but stopped work when I figured out how bad the Trumpeter LCM hull was. I know what to do to fix it (hard work) but have lost my motivation.

John

The only time they were transported this way was during the crossing of the Rhine. They had a small marina to use to do it. The marina had a crane.

Why not just back the thing in the river like any other boat trailer?

Because it's not a boat trailer. It's a little heavier than a boat trailer and would have sunk into the river bottom. Marina's are equipped to offload trucks like this quite easily.

My pics were only taken just to see how its will looking.
I just put the boat on the M25 Dragon Wagon from Tamiya that lies since some years on my shelves .

It was built for carrying an Amtrack.When I worked on this project , I make all the necessary changes.

Good ref pics are in the book Dragon Wagon.

pascal

John, a marina is a place where boats are kept when not in use. They have facilities to load and unload boats that are too large to do the old back the trailer in the water trick.
Typically anything over 25' is considered too big for that kind of trailer but there are some people who have cigarette boats that do just that, but it is because the do not have a big keel or deep draft. Luxury boats have a deep keel to increase stability and you cannot unload them from a trailer because of the keel. In this case the marina has a crane and they put a couple of straps under the hull and lift it off the trailer, then move it over the water and drop it down. There are plenty of marinas on most large rivers and lakes. The LCMs are just right for those kind of deals.

Rob:

I understand "marina", but not on some Dutch canal or on the Rhine in WW2. Maybe a boatyard or something. I suspect many of them may not have been accessible to large-load trucks, and/or may have been destroyed/disrupted by the war passing bay.

Since I've not seen any pictures of the LCM being loaded/unloaded onto a trailer-truck (DW or Scammell) for movement from a "marina", I'll stick with what I have seen.

Check this site out

http://www.freehomepages.com/bdk/PvtAllee.htm

It has some photo's of LCM's on Dragon Wagons as well as a pic of the lee CDL! (very rare)

Thanks for the link Michael, and welcome to the Number 1 Modelling Website : ARMORAMA !

Frenchy

Hi John,
found this pic in the Ampersand book about the DW:

Can't wait to see your loading dio :-) and hope your wife will leave you alife. Offer her a Bouquet and you will make it.

Great picture! I thought it was somewhat different!
Cheers and happy modelling!
Prato

The Rhine is a VERY large river, in many areas, boatyards and harbors were constructed along the banks. This worked in the Allies favor as no specialized buildings or dock areas were required to 'launch' the LCMs - a simple slipway and a hardstand was more than enough. The Germans certainly used 'scorched-earth' to deny harbor facilities to the Aliies but with the heavy lifting gear which was organic to all Allied armored divisions it was a (relatively) simple process...Jim

hi guys and dukw, nice set-up..an M26 and LCM3..plus a crane lifting the craft out of the trailer. were they loading it or the other way around? can't wait to see it in diorama. thanks for sharing.

Weren't many of the LCMs re-painted to an olive drab color for this operation ??

In sorta reverse order:

StarTraveler/ Frank: Yes they were -- by hand. See pix in my Gallery for a couple examples.

Jim: Seen the Rhine, many times. If you look at my post, I was reacting to the word "marina" which in my terms of reference does not always have the capability of a real boatyard. I allow for boatyards in that post, but again the pix I have seen show the process being done as in the pic posted by dukw. The few pix I have seen of LCM's & boatyards are in the actual ferry operations ...

dukw/ Harald: Thanks, I have that picture & a (very) few others. I saw more in the halls of USTRANSCOM at Scott Air Force Base & wish I had tried to get copies.

My question is the crane -- anyone know what it is ? Looks suspiciously like the Accurate Armor kit of the RB19 & if I can win a lottery, I'd love to build it into a diorama like that picture ...

John

John, yes, I would totally agree with you about the use of 'Marina' and substitute it for 'Canal Basin' these were areas which were constructed alongside both canals and large navigable waterways like the Rhine or the Rhone.

I'm damn sure you're right about the AA Crane. Having seen the 'Beast' in the flesh it's an incredibly impressive piece of engineering..

Of course another possibility is this:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=47208&messageid=1119529956 - using Italeri's new LCVP in a similar situation....Jim

Jim:

Yeah but when one takes the actual cost of the kit multiplied by the dollar being in the crapper and adding in the boom extension kit ... that's a lot of things to give up ... Stiil, it is a gleam in my eye ....

John

These may or may not be the same LC`s but kinda cool all the same.



Here`s hopin they worked!

sas:

The top photo looks like a dummy created to celebrate producing 7000 of the things.

The next 2 photos are great shots of LCM's being hauled by the Diamond-T (M20) / Rogers (M9) tank transporter combo (M19) -- thanks for posting them !!!!

John