Well, this has happened to me so I came up with a little visual help. Check out the link and it will explain everything. Linkie - Digital Grass
Dioramas
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Digital grass...
Marty
Joined: June 16, 2002
KitMaker: 2,312 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:45 AM UTC
Have any of you ever ruined a dio because your landscape didn't come out the way you had in envisioned in your head? Well, this has happened to me so I came up with a little visual help. Check out the link and it will explain everything. Linkie - Digital Grass
Well, this has happened to me so I came up with a little visual help. Check out the link and it will explain everything. Linkie - Digital Grass
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Have any of you ever ruined a dio because your landscape didn't come out the way you had in envisioned in your head?
Interesting concept Marty - you should extend that to Digital Camouflage for AFV models...
Gunnie
Marty
Joined: June 16, 2002
KitMaker: 2,312 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 01:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Interesting concept Marty - you should extend that to Digital Camouflage for AFV models...
Gunnie, that might work well too.
Marty
Eagle
Joined: May 22, 2002
KitMaker: 4,082 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:18 AM UTC
Nice concept Marty. Like your site too !
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:25 AM UTC
What a neat idea!
TimberWolf
Joined: July 15, 2002
KitMaker: 225 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:30 AM UTC
Thats a very cool idea...... I'll use that on airplanes too! (see where the invasion stripes go) 
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
Armorama: 2,804 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 03:06 AM UTC
Very cool idea...even if it's a cheat. 
Marty
Joined: June 16, 2002
KitMaker: 2,312 posts
Armorama: 1,054 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 03:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Very cool idea...even if it's a cheat.
Well, I wouldn't call this cheating...I would call this..uhmm..Digital Assistance in Expanding Modeling Horizons. #:-)
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 07:47 AM UTC
Good one Marty. As the rest said what about digital painting
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
Armorama: 2,804 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 09:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Good one Marty. As the rest said what about digital painting
Hmmm...I hope you got and or get paint on your fingers when you do that.
KFMagee
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,586 posts
Armorama: 1,225 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:22 PM UTC
I guess I agree... while the result is nice, it is still not "modeling"... it's almost drawing! You did a nice job on the base dio... you just need to practice your grassing techniques so that you have a real finished model. I mean, if someone were to look at the actual model on your desk, are you going to show them the photo instead?
I'm not criticizing here at all... but learning the full range of techniques is what makes Dioramas the most challengeing (and rewarding, IMHO) vector of the hobby. Not only do you have to master buildings, figures, armor, landscape, etc., but you have to do them all equally well, and then wrap a visual story around everything to glue it together...
Again - nice work, and good effect if what you are after is photos... but where do you draw the line? Do you also Digitize the eyes in your figures, or alter away flash lines left on your armor? I guess you could save a lot of money and not build models at all... just draw pictures of models! It's almost like marrying a "Plain Jane" gal, then showing your co-workers a picture of a Playboy Centerfold when they ask to see a picture of your wife.
Does this make sense to everyone, or am I just being too harsh on a neat idea?
I'm not criticizing here at all... but learning the full range of techniques is what makes Dioramas the most challengeing (and rewarding, IMHO) vector of the hobby. Not only do you have to master buildings, figures, armor, landscape, etc., but you have to do them all equally well, and then wrap a visual story around everything to glue it together...
Again - nice work, and good effect if what you are after is photos... but where do you draw the line? Do you also Digitize the eyes in your figures, or alter away flash lines left on your armor? I guess you could save a lot of money and not build models at all... just draw pictures of models! It's almost like marrying a "Plain Jane" gal, then showing your co-workers a picture of a Playboy Centerfold when they ask to see a picture of your wife.
Does this make sense to everyone, or am I just being too harsh on a neat idea?
Eagle
Joined: May 22, 2002
KitMaker: 4,082 posts
Armorama: 1,993 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Does this make sense to everyone, or am I just being too harsh on a neat idea?
Howdy,
I read your post o' couple of times and I get the impression, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you think the final dio is digitally reworked..... and that you are looking at a picture in steda of a model.
If so, than maybe you overlooked that the drawing is just a planning thing and it has nothing to do with the building itself. He just sketches the grass onto the dio to find out where he should put it in the actual model. After "sketching" he still pics up the glue and grass and puts it on by hand.
If not, than I don't understand your reply since the actual modeling is still done by hand using glue and grass.
Like Marty said it's just a visual help, just like Envar does the sketching with pencil and paper Marty does it with a mouse and a screen.....
I hope I judged things right. If not, please feel free to correct me !
Plasticbattle
#003
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 04:08 PM UTC
I agree with methods like this to make it easier to see what the finished product will look like. I have made 4 dios now and 2 out of 4 I changed the whole idea when the setting has been finished. When all was complete, I felt that the vehicle(s) or whatever did not suit the finished dio. Maybe you could say that this is just bad planning, but if all it takes is a small aid to help, why not. Everybody has their own method of making things work, and the answer is, if it works it MUST be right. Just my opinion.
Frank
Frank
Envar
Joined: March 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,088 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 04:21 PM UTC
The fitting of vehicles and figures on groundwork can be difficult. The solution can be a slight color tint or maybe some pastel chalk on any one of these or similar. Why not try things out digitally before making a turpenoid wash (or something else that can be potentially hazardous for the model if it goes wrong)! Besides applying layers in a graphics program can be very helpful when judging the order of applying weathering layers on real model!
And there is no "undo"-command in real life...
One point: When I´m looking at a picture I DO want to know if manipulation has been done!
I like to know what I´m looking at!
In my own productions I prefer keeping the digital manipulation to a minimum and if retouching has been done I always make it clear.
Toni
And there is no "undo"-command in real life...
One point: When I´m looking at a picture I DO want to know if manipulation has been done!
I like to know what I´m looking at!
In my own productions I prefer keeping the digital manipulation to a minimum and if retouching has been done I always make it clear.
Toni
bytepilot
Joined: June 01, 2002
KitMaker: 381 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 04:54 PM UTC
I think I'll agree with Keith on this one...
Personally, I do like to work a lot on 3D Programs and texturing my virtual models using Photoshop. However, I think I'd definitely draw the line at altering pics of my model kit to show a landscape that does not exist.
If I don't know how to make a diorama to park my models in, then I'd rather let it be on its own, rather than put it in a virtual scenery.
On the other hand, if you need to plan and envisage your dio's before you start plonking in your model in the middle, then the PC can be a great help. But, that's what reference books and pics are for, right
? You can exercise your imagination to turn a black and white pic into a living, breathing dio in color...
I've also seen great sketches here by Envar, which, frankly, make me turn greeeen with envy! Agreed, not everybody can sketch like that, but you can learn!
At the end, to summarise my op on this :
- If the PC is used as a tool for planning, all the more power to you.
- If the PC is being used to alter the moles and warts, you wouldn't be able to learn.
RIP,
BP.
Personally, I do like to work a lot on 3D Programs and texturing my virtual models using Photoshop. However, I think I'd definitely draw the line at altering pics of my model kit to show a landscape that does not exist.
If I don't know how to make a diorama to park my models in, then I'd rather let it be on its own, rather than put it in a virtual scenery.
On the other hand, if you need to plan and envisage your dio's before you start plonking in your model in the middle, then the PC can be a great help. But, that's what reference books and pics are for, right
? You can exercise your imagination to turn a black and white pic into a living, breathing dio in color...I've also seen great sketches here by Envar, which, frankly, make me turn greeeen with envy! Agreed, not everybody can sketch like that, but you can learn!
At the end, to summarise my op on this :
- If the PC is used as a tool for planning, all the more power to you.
- If the PC is being used to alter the moles and warts, you wouldn't be able to learn.
RIP,
BP.
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 08:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextGood one Marty. As the rest said what about digital painting
Hmmm...I hope you got and or get paint on your fingers when you do that.
Heck no all over the darn screen and keyboard must be more carefull
Marty
Joined: June 16, 2002
KitMaker: 2,312 posts
Armorama: 1,054 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 09:03 PM UTC
Well, it seems to me that some of you indeed missed my point. I only use this technique to help me visualize where I want to have the grass and/or bushes placed on in my dio. I do not alter my pictures as there is no point in doing so. What you see is what you get.
KFMagee and Envar, do you really think that the third photo in the sequence has been altered and the grass there is also digitally painted on? All that is there are Elmer's glue, static grass, acrylic paints and soft pastels.
Eagle, you hit the nail right on the head. Like I have said, this was only used to help me visualize.
For all it is worth, once the diorama has been completed I will take final pictures and post them on my website. You folks can then see for yourself is anything has been digitally altered.
Marty
I only use this technique to help me visualize where I want to have the grass and/or bushes placed on in my dio. I do not alter my pictures as there is no point in doing so. What you see is what you get.KFMagee and Envar, do you really think that the third photo in the sequence has been altered and the grass there is also digitally painted on? All that is there are Elmer's glue, static grass, acrylic paints and soft pastels.
Quoted Text
I read your post o' couple of times and I get the impression, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you think the final dio is digitally reworked..... and that you are looking at a picture in steda of a model.
If so, than maybe you overlooked that the drawing is just a planning thing and it has nothing to do with the building itself. He just sketches the grass onto the dio to find out where he should put it in the actual model. After "sketching" he still pics up the glue and grass and puts it on by hand.
Eagle, you hit the nail right on the head. Like I have said, this was only used to help me visualize.
For all it is worth, once the diorama has been completed I will take final pictures and post them on my website. You folks can then see for yourself is anything has been digitally altered.
Marty
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 12:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Does this make sense to everyone, or am I just being too harsh on a neat idea?
The post did come across a little harsh to me too - but I understood what you related. I think he's using a nice tool to help visualize what he hopes to accomplish - before switching to glue and static grass on a hard-worked diorama. I too like Envar's method of sketching out what he wants to eventually build up in three dimensions - it's the same concept. Couple of nice ideas for pre-work in modeling...
Gunnie
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 08:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, it seems to me that some of you indeed missed my point.
KFMagee and Envar, do you really think that the third photo in the sequence has been altered and the grass there is also digitally painted on? All that is there are Elmer's glue, static grass, acrylic paints and soft pastels.Quoted TextI read your post o' couple of times and I get the impression, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you think the final dio is digitally reworked..... and that you are looking at a picture in steda of a model.
If so, than maybe you overlooked that the drawing is just a planning thing and it has nothing to do with the building itself. He just sketches the grass onto the dio to find out where he should put it in the actual model. After "sketching" he still pics up the glue and grass and puts it on by hand.
Eagle, you hit the nail right on the head. Like I have said, this was only used to help me visualize.
For all it is worth, once the diorama has been completed I will take final pictures and post them on my website. You folks can then see for yourself is anything has been digitally altered.
Marty
I know what you mean just was wondering if their was a way to say take picture of a model then like shoot some OD paint on it using computer then.Wait a minute can this not be done in paint or Paint Shop Pro to add colors to a model then if don't like that you could say lighten it a little or darken it.. Yes or No never tried it or maybe Adobe Photo 6.0
bytepilot
Joined: June 01, 2002
KitMaker: 381 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 12:30 PM UTC
Hi sgtreef,
It's perfectly possible to completely alter the colors of any scanned photo using programs like Photoshop and PaintShop Pro.
In fact, I had to use Photoshop to restore the brightness of my photos which were scanned. The damn scanner made them look very very dark, and so I had to tune up the brightness so as to show the image properly.
You can also use it after you've finished your model #:-) to see how it would look in different camo colors. Or you can scan in existing b/w 3 views given in the kit instructions, color them according to the paint codes given, and see how it would probably look when it is painted.
Well, all this has given me an idea for an article. With your permission, Marty, I'd like to put up an article based upon your idea, for the Aircraft section. Pls let me know if this is OK by you...
Rgds,
BP.
It's perfectly possible to completely alter the colors of any scanned photo using programs like Photoshop and PaintShop Pro.
In fact, I had to use Photoshop to restore the brightness of my photos which were scanned. The damn scanner made them look very very dark, and so I had to tune up the brightness so as to show the image properly.
You can also use it after you've finished your model #:-) to see how it would look in different camo colors. Or you can scan in existing b/w 3 views given in the kit instructions, color them according to the paint codes given, and see how it would probably look when it is painted.
Well, all this has given me an idea for an article. With your permission, Marty, I'd like to put up an article based upon your idea, for the Aircraft section. Pls let me know if this is OK by you...
Rgds,
BP.
Marty
Joined: June 16, 2002
KitMaker: 2,312 posts
Armorama: 1,054 posts
Posted: Friday, August 23, 2002 - 12:39 AM UTC
Hey BP, go right ahead and knock yourself out. I am glad that my method has aroused some interest. If you can write an article 
that is going to help someone else build thier models, go for it. This is what this forum is all about. Everyone needs help once in a while.
Marty
that is going to help someone else build thier models, go for it. This is what this forum is all about. Everyone needs help once in a while. Marty
KFMagee
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,586 posts
Armorama: 1,225 posts
Posted: Friday, August 23, 2002 - 01:41 PM UTC
Marty - my dimwitted apologies! In reading my message you are correct that I did not realize you were using the digital tools for "layout" purposes! I thought you were indeed finishing the dio to a certain point, then altering the final product with software to create a more interesting photo!
Man - I've been inhaling too much glue and resin dust! Again - my most sincere apologies.... I wasn't rtying to be rude, but was questioning the value of an "enhanced reality".... at any rate, it IS indeed a good idea! I usually sketch my project on Designer, but have never gone so far as to use something like Paint Shop Pro. Think I may give it a try!
Man - I've been inhaling too much glue and resin dust! Again - my most sincere apologies.... I wasn't rtying to be rude, but was questioning the value of an "enhanced reality".... at any rate, it IS indeed a good idea! I usually sketch my project on Designer, but have never gone so far as to use something like Paint Shop Pro. Think I may give it a try!
Marty
Joined: June 16, 2002
KitMaker: 2,312 posts
Armorama: 1,054 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 01:48 AM UTC
KFMagee, apologies accepted :-) They weren't really necessary. I figured this was just a simple misunderstanding. I am glad I was able to contribute with this idea.
Marty
Marty
acav
Joined: May 09, 2002
KitMaker: 517 posts
Armorama: 290 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 12:48 AM UTC
Hi all,
Hope I'm not to late for my two cents worth.
I think this another good idea for planning the finished product.
As a professional designer, I know the value of planning and visualising.
HOWEVER, it's still important to use the approach logically.
As with weathering your vehicles, logically placing your groundwork is just as important.
In the example the original poster showed us, I'd raise the point of - is the grass in the right place?
Feet wear away ground cover and create natural 'paths'.
Embedded objects (bunkers, dragons teeth etc) tend to have thicker growth around their 'roots'.
So in this case, I'd actually
And no foot tracks in the minefields...
acav out
Hope I'm not to late for my two cents worth.
I think this another good idea for planning the finished product.
As a professional designer, I know the value of planning and visualising.
HOWEVER, it's still important to use the approach logically.
As with weathering your vehicles, logically placing your groundwork is just as important.
In the example the original poster showed us, I'd raise the point of - is the grass in the right place?
Feet wear away ground cover and create natural 'paths'.
Embedded objects (bunkers, dragons teeth etc) tend to have thicker growth around their 'roots'.
So in this case, I'd actually
- reverse
And no foot tracks in the minefields...
acav out
Envar
Joined: March 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,088 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 05:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
KFMagee and Envar, do you really think that the third photo in the sequence has been altered and the grass there is also digitally painted on?
Heh! That´s how it is sometimes when I start answering something and the next phrase is totally out of topic!
Well, I must admit that I thought at first that the third pic was showing digital grass. Why it drew my attention? I do some professional photo manipulation in my day job and I would have congratulated you for that "digital grass". #:-) Just because I know how much work it would have taken to do that in Photoshop that well!!! #:-) #:-) #:-)
BTW, I use the same method to find the right camo colours. I take a digi pic and adjust the hue and saturation to try out different looks. Very helpful.
Toni
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