Many modelers in the suburb of Bastogne are surprised by the fighting of Ferdinand during the siege of Bastogne.

Reference books about this subject confirm this fact. It was Ferdinand who where on rebuild in Germany and initially ready to be send to Italy but the allies progression stop this plan and the Ferdinand where joined to the troops of the germam General Kokot. They fight south of Bastogne, during the hard struggles in the small village of Champs.

Who can help to tell the color schema of these Ferdinand ?

We want to build it (dragon kit) and display this scene in one of the many expositions held for the celebration.

NB: the 60th anniversary celebrations will take place on 18th and 19th of December in Bastogne and around near the American perimeter

I'm very surprized by this information. I really didn't know this. I thought they all where send to Italy.
unfortunately I don't know about the color scheme, but are you sure it's a Ferdinand and not an Elephant?
Because according to my information al Ferdinands where converted after kursk. Later these conversions where renamed Elephant.

Cheers,

Pascal

This is news to me. I have seen many many pics of the BOTB, and read many books, but never seen or heard anything about an Elephant or Ferdinand being present. Could you please post a pic or reference as to where you're info comes from.

Mike

I'll go along with the last two posts. This is a new one to me. The Ferdinands were modified and the remainder sent to Italy after Kursk (July 1943). If any made it to the Battle of the Bulge area, I'd sure like to know where and when.
thanks
DJ

I find my informations from books mainly written in french by reknown writter or after historical research by local history specialists.

It was really a surprise to discover this fact and the news come from different sources.

I will post more accurate information about the use of the Ferdinand (I will check also if it's not Elephant too) : unit, number of tank, fighting area. I will compile it and sumary it.

Perfect thing to share with the community !

That's why I will build a kit of it.

For sure, an exciting historical fact known by few people.

Ferdinands of the 653rd and 654th were all converted to Elefants post Kursk. All but the 1 company were sent back to russia. The first company 653rd was sent to italy. There were no Ferdinands left by the time of the BOTB.

I have heard of at least one Ferdinand used during the Battle of Berlin. Did not know about the BOTB, however. Google did not turn up anything except 25 pages worth of references to the classic BOTB movie...

Shaun

Hello out there,
I see a lot of clever people posting here and many saying "/news to me" and "prove it".
Really we have no idea just what was cobbled together to make a fighting unit in the final days of the German Army!! Photos were not taken of every step or round fired as they are today, so it IS possible that a Ferdinand or Elephant fought in the Ardennes, same as it is possible that Allied Troops believed all German Tanks were Tigers or Panthers when they most probably were Mark IVs or Stugs.

I don't see how it can be proved either way to be frank!!

Sam

I never came out and said it didn't happen (though I will say now I highly doubt it) I just asked for some proof. The BOTB is probably one of the more photographed battles in the war (by both sides) and again I will say I have never read or seen of any Elephants in the Bulge. That is not taking into account the info Sticky posted above regarding deployment of the Ferdinands and Elephants which is a known fact. So Sam, since you seem to be so clever, why don't you point me to this elusive Ferdinand/Elephant and I will be happy to step up and say I was wrong.

Mike

Well, I will come out and say it "didn't happen!" Good question to post on the History Forum.

Sure anything is possible, but in this case highly unlikely. There were only a limited number of left over Tiger (P) hulls available, I beleive 2 were converted to recovery vehicles, 4 were turretless test vehicles, 1 Tiger P was assigned to the 653rd as a command tank (the new Dragon release) the rest were converted to Ferdis and assigned to the 653 and 654. So where a ferdi could show up from who knows - but this would be kewl news - but it is so unusual that photographic proof would be kinda nice. The two books on the 653 and 654 I believe account for all the hulls assigned to them, it would be neat to see if one kinda was spirited away for another purpose, yet show to be in russia! Black ops style! So if you have the photo please share it!

It is indeed a fascinating idea for a future thread on the HF...

I am definitely on the 'skeptical' side - not that it didn't happen or they weren't there, just that sometimes the most careful investigator can get led down blind alleys.

The point made by Sam Wilson was interesting - many times Allied troops saw Tigers or Panthers in every situation. Eye-witness accounts can be extremely dangerous - photos less so but can often be placed out of context...

As I have not the slightest idea about the deployment (or otherwise) of Ferdinands/Elefants during the BOTB, however it is a subject which would welcome some additional research.. Unit histories and OOB? ..Jim

The point I was making was not to pick fault with anyones "proof" so to say. It is hard to put expression in words when writing and my point on clever people was not sarcastic. I do think there ar alot of clever people here and people with a vast knowledge of the subject they are interested in, so if offense was taken I apologise.
This does not take away the fact that it didn't happen!! I too have read many books and seen many photos of the Ardennes offensive and never seen a Ferdinand or Elephant, but that does not mean they were not there. I too doubt they were there, but am keeping an open mind because I cannot prove they were not. And that is the point I was trying to make.
At the end of the day are we all not modllers trying to improve and surely not on this site to lady at each other. Again, sorry if I have wound anyone up the wrong way.

Sam

As far as colorscheme goes, I think it is safe to assume that the base-color would be Panzer Yellow. And hen either a dark-green or dark-red/brown overspray.

In the sPz-J Abt 654 monograph, which had Ferdinands in 1943, all color-reproductions show a green overspray; the overspray-pattern varies. Some have thin , though dark, green lines, creating a pattern remarkably similar to that of a giraffe; in some the green bands are so thick that it almost looks as if it had been dark-green base, with big yellow irregular blobs attached to them.

Hi Guys ...I too when I read the title went HMMMM!! I had never heard a word about this in all my years of modelling .... I don't think anyone wanted to say that it didn't happen,but a little proof (what references he was using )couldn't hurt... I'm pretty skeptical myself but would love to be proven wrong. Seems to me there is no mention of this happening in the history of the 653rd ,who were the last ones to have the Elephants.
Hey it could happen ..I guess.

Rick

Consider this:

sPzJag Abt 653 were issued Jagdtigers in late 1944. Since Jagdtigers were a fairly new vehicle in the field at the time of the Ardennes Offensive, GI's not knowing what the vehicle was, may have incorrectly identified it as an Elefant/Ferdinand. Also, the first Jagdtigers were built with a Porsche suspension (aka Ferdinand Porsche).

sPzJag Abt 654 was issued Jadgpanthers in mid-late 1944. Again, new GI's just in from the states, could have simply mis-identified the Jagdpanther (armed with an 8.8cm Pak)

Another possiblility, and this is a guess, that a Nashorn, again armed with an 8.8cm Pak 43, could have seen action in the Bastogne area, and may have been identified as a Elefant due to the vehicles similar appearence (to a grunt) and the Nashorn.

Some good references on the sPzJag Abt 653, and sPzJag Abt 654 are the JJ Fedorowicz books on these 2 units. Both books trace the history of each unit, and includes a wealth of information on the use of the Jagdpanzer Ferdinand/Elefants. Maybe some information in either will give some clues.

As far as I know, sPzJag Abt 654 was in fact present in the Ardennes Offensive.

Cheers !!

Alpen

That was my thought too, that a Nashhorn was identified as a Ferdinand / Elepant. It wouldn't make sense to have one or two of these up there, but the whole company and therefore they would have been spotted and at least one destoyed in all the battle. But in the spirit of modeling, I read the advice on the color scheme and agree that those would be the most likely colors perhaps with a whitewash.

Ok, this post caught my eye, and since it was a fellow Belgian who started it, I dug into my library and came up with this.

I have consulted "Organisation der Deutsche Kampfverbande". This books gives a complete overview of the composition of all involved divisions of all major battles of WW2, down to the last tank (numbers of each type and changes during the battle).

This book shows no trace of any Elephant/Ferdinand use by Wehrmacht and SS Panzer or Panzergrenadier divisions, batalions, regiments.

BUT... this book also states, that several non-panzer units were equipped with armor also, but mostly records did not show which type exactly because they were equiped with all kinds of material. Most records just state a "number" of PzkfwIV, Panther or Tiger including all their variants. The only seperate record they have is of a reserve "Zug" (platoon) equiped with 1 Jagdtiger, 2 Hetzers and a PzkfwIII command tank and men equipped with anti-tank material. This unit however did not see any action until the Germans were back onto their starting line.

So, could their have been Ferdinands?? Who knows...

Brakeet, go ahead... any camouflage scheme will do...
artistic licence remember...

Kris

Could proof of the Ferdinand at the BOTB be the Holy Grail of German armor builders as the Sherman M4A1 75mm large hatch non-dd is the elusive Holy Grail for Sherman builders?

To complete informations :

In the book of Commandant Castor 'Le GI face ä la 5ème Armée Panzer' - Part 1 - page 305, he tells that :

In the morning of the 23rd of december 1944, 5 Ferdinand of the 653rd Heavy Tank Destroyer Bataillon, coming from Italy, where joined to the 26th Volksgrenadier of the Colonel Kokot.

They are engaged this day at Chaumont (south of Bastogne) againt the American 10th Inantry Bataillon of Lieutenant-Colonel Cohen fighting in cooperation with 22 Sherman of the 8th Tank Bataillon.

The 5 Ferdinand were fighting together with 10 Sturmgeschutz.

During all the day and along the night, heavy figthings take place in the small village of Chaumont.

I also read this informations with less details in the french publication 'Militaria magazine - Hors-Série' about the Battle of the Bulge.

Maybe, authors reporting this fact are confused with JagdTigers ? That's a interresting point to clarify.

I just start this forum entry to see if other members of the community have some informations to confirm the news.

OK I'm really not trying to come off sounding like a no-it-all but, one Elephant/Ferdinand was enough, but five, I'm sorry I think this has got to be a case of mis-identification. I mean they even say "Ferdinand" and there definitely were no Ferdinands at this point in the war. They had been converted to Elephants, yes similar I know but still different. I have the combat history of of sPzjager abt 654 and just skimming through quickly the 654 had some Nashorns attached to it at this time and were in the Ardennes area, I would bet these were what was seen.

Mike

info out the book " The German Order of battle "
The combat debuut of the Porsche Ferdinands was at the battle of Kursk, where nearly all of them were destroyed.
Of the 90 built, 68 Ferdinands were assigned to the 656 th Jagdpanzer Regiment, which was formed with the 653rd and 654 th Panzer Jagdpanzer Battalions. Each battalion had 3 company of 14 Ferdinands, a maintenance company, and a staff and staff battery that had 3 more Ferdinands.
The653rd and 654th Panzer Jagdpanzer Battalions are among the most famous of the Jagdpanzer Battalions . Originally they were equipped with the Ferdinands Sdkfz 184 Elephant. When raised they were equipped as follows:
1 Staff
1 Staff Compny
1 Elephant Platoon (3 Sdkfz 184 )
1Self propelled Flak Platoon ( 3 quad 200mm guns)
3 Elephant Companies ( 14 Sdkfz 184 and 14 LMGs ea )
1 Self Propelled Maintenance Company

Theze 2 Battalions were badly mauled during the battle of Kursk in July 1943, but they remained active and re-equipped.
The 653rd was re-equipped with the 128mm Jagdtiger destroyer ( Sdkfz 186 ) on the 13 December 1944 and the 654th was re-equipped with the Jagdpanther ( Sdkfz 173 ) on the 15 march 1944.
for the rest i can't find any info about action during the Ardennes offensieve, sorry

I have the Combat History of Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 653. There is no mention of Elephants used in the BOTB. Only 12 remained after August of 1944, they were consolidated in the second company of the 653rd, which in December was renamed the 614th Schwere Panzerjager Company. These were used on the Eastern Front, against the large Russian offensive on the 12th of January, 1945. The last 4 were lost around Konigswusterhausen, Zossen and the Berlin area. The final 2 vehicles were lost in inner city Berlin, fighting at the Karl-August-Platz and Trinity Church. Russian and Polish troops captured them on May 1st, 1945. With 558 pages and more than 700 photos, you are hard pressed to find a more detailed description of this units activities than the Combat History of Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 653. .

The 654th sPz-J. Abt never fought in te Ardennes; it was part of AOK 19 (19th army), much of it being army-reserve. It took part in oparation "Nordwind", aimed at, and around Strassburg, which is roughly 100 km to the South-East.

So 654th was never involved in the Ardennes offensive.