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dilemma or taboo
RIMA
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Overijssel, Netherlands
Joined: September 08, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 03:20 AM UTC
My laste 2 post seems to point a sensitive nerve to people.
It seams that there is a feeling which was in the years 70s if you have been watching war movies from this time the producer could never show dead GI's or blood end year 80 and 90 they finaly break the taboe with film like " Apocalypse now ", "Platoon","Hamburger Hill ", "Saving Private Bryan ", "Band of Brothers ", "Black hawk down" they all been cass crakers and you see quite a lot of blood people did like it because it is so realistic.
Now my question is why are we still as modelers back with the mentality of the 50's,60's and 70's blood is disturbing.
Here is what i mean,




here is a ( from my meaning ) someone who understand my problem

Quoted Text


Gino P. Quintiliani CALLSIGN:
HeavyArty
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Quote:
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Yes, Faust, they were specifically mentioned in one of the recent Journals as not being allowed. This is part of the nudity/decency question that has gone around IPMS for a couple years.

From the IPMS/USA Competition Handbook:
"5. The Chief Judge will exclude or remove from competition any entry considered by Contest officials to be inappropriate or offensive to generally acknowledged standards of taste and acceptability.

A. The following are prohibited in competition and may not be placed on display at any IPMS event:

There shall be no depiction of excretory functions depicting any human being or animal. "
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Exactly the reason I don't belong nor enter any IMPS functions. Too much is up to the judges' discretion. The same rule applies to showing dead bodies in a dio. Lets get real people. These things happen in wartime, it is not all cool vehicles and weapons. Those cool vehicles and weapons are designed to maime, destroy, and kill other people. Why is it so wrong to show this in a dio?
bowjunkie35
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Iowa, United States
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 03:39 AM UTC
I don't know why. However, there was a fairly realistic Vietnam era film that came before all of the films you mentioned above which showed everything you mentioned that thety didn't show! Whew!! Anyway, the film is called the Boys in Company C and it is one of my favorites, It is our first introduction to D.I. R.Lee Emrey and it follows a group of Marines from bootcamp to Vietnam. Lots of killing and soccer playing in this one. Yes Soccer!!! They play soccer against a lot of vietnam teams to try to earn their way out of the war.

I would classify this as the first of the modern era war movies.

As far as portraying blood and guts in modeling, I think it looks kind of cheesy. Something about red blood and plastic that just makes me think of a B grade horror movie. :-) Just my opinion but but pooled blood, even just let blood, starts turning a very dark crimson color.

slodder
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North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 03:46 AM UTC
Hmmmm, where to start. I guess from a personal preference I tend not to model this type of situation. I have kids and am sensative to what they see me model. I wouldn't want that being displayed.
As far as 'looking down on' or 'poo pooing' (sorry for the pun) your diorama - I won't. I may choose not comment or not to view it. (as an editor I did take a look and evaluated the content - close - different camera angles and I may have gone the other way)

I think that large organizations and websites (this one included) need to be more descrete to watch out for this sort of thing. I think the blood issue is less of a factor in my eyes with the subject matter. There is blood in war and there are times when you can't get around it at all. The bathroom one ?? ehh boarder line in my opinion. It gets even more questionable in the figure area - you can get some very inappropriate female figures that I would not want my kids to see at a show.


NOTE: This is a touchie thread - Be respectful and careful with your responses I don't want to get off topic
ShermiesRule
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Michigan, United States
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 03:47 AM UTC
I am not offended by blood but it has to be done right. I mean just spray painting a lot of red on a bunch of figures isn't right. Soldiers get shot and killed and blood is a part of it. I am much more interested in it from an artistic viewpoint than an offensive viewpoint

Specifically about the horse. I like the idea you are portraying. Civilian casualties are part of war. Maybe a larger cloth with a little less blood may have the same meaning.

As for the soldier going to the bathroom, I think it's a funny scene and you have him partially hidden. I have no issue with that scene. In a dio that big I think it's little things like the bathroom scene that make them interesting
RIMA
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Overijssel, Netherlands
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 04:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am not offended by blood but it has to be done right. I mean just spray painting a lot of red on a bunch of figures isn't right. Soldiers get shot and killed and blood is a part of it. I am much more interested in it from an artistic viewpoint than an offensive viewpoint

Specifically about the horse. I ike the idea you are portraying. Maybe a larger cloth with a little less blood may have the same meaning.

As for the soldier going to the bathroom, I think it's a funny scene and you have him partially hidden. I have no issue with that scene.


About the horse this was also my point i did put a cloth on it to be honest the head didn't look correct but also not to hurt some people, putting the cloth with less blood was an option buit in reality the blood gets very quickly through it. because the arder will still expail the blood out and that look pretty messy. The idea is not base on a B movie :-)
As for the soldier on the bathroom well there is nothing that is shoking it it only a funny scene i just wanted to put as much details on the inproved field toilet with books as toilet paper, a signal revue for the reading and a bit machisme a pin up lon a pol which is you have to be honnest something that everyone as been at leaste once confrontated with in a man toilet .
I APPRICIATE Scott Lodder NOTE
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 05:59 AM UTC
I personally think that you have done it well - the criteria that many forget in a dio is a degree of narrative.

As for the other subject - perhaps dios should provoke not in a silly infantile way, but in the sense of making people think.

Death, is a subject which is tremendously difficult to portray with both sensitivity and conviction. I think that you have also managed to give a sense of poignancy to the scene with the dead horse.

Personally, I think i'd draw the line with anyhing connected with concentration camps or genocide. Not to say it shouldn't be done - just that I wouldn't personally want to tackle it. Thanks for posting these pics, and thanks to Scott for your careful and considered words..Jim
TsunamiBomb
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Arizona, United States
Joined: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 06:41 AM UTC
Well, I think you over did it. I mean yes its realistic but not for a diorama. Just my unexperienced answer.
TreadHead
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 07:00 AM UTC
Howdy RIMA,

I will try to be quick with my response.

As I always think in terms of 'dio', I think the answer to this entire "issue" if one needs to call it that, is very simple.

Whatever the subject matter, whether it be blood, evisera, nudity, toilet duties, etc, etc. If it truly serves to support the idea or theme of your diorama, or you feel it is a necessary ingredient to tell your story, then......it's justified.
But, there needs to be an 'honesty' factor applied. Adding one of the above ingredients just to add impact to your depiction, is the same as using profanity to make your verbal point.....both sophmoric, and without taste or maturity.

Tread.

Post Script: And as an assist, I believe the words you were originally looking for were Dilemma, and Taboo.......correct?

EDIT by Eagle : Changed Topic Title, thanks Tread !
Tapper
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Alabama, United States
Joined: July 26, 2003
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 07:49 AM UTC
LOL! I was wondering when Verlinden was going to release their newest 1/35th "Afrika Korps Pinching a Loaf" figure. :-) :-)
KFMagee
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Texas, United States
Joined: January 08, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:02 AM UTC
As both a modeller and former Navy Seal, i am neither new to the subject of death and blood, nor offended by it.

At the same time, most "blood" scenes done in dioramas are poorly done... either way to much for the given subject, or otherwise poorly done. If you view some of my works, you will find blood at times... in one early work (Sniper), I show a body slumped to the ground, slid from the chair where he was shot. in the back of the chair is a single bullethole, and there is a slight trace of blood where the victim slide out of the chair. It made "sense" and was actually central to the theme... a distant death with a timeline of the fallen soldier.

At the same time, i have seen wretched work where figures are simply "laid down" without modification, and literally gallons (in scale) of blood surround the figure, as if he were swimming in a pool of elephant's blood. Useless, silly, unrealistic, and poorly done.

Blood? No problem...
Death? Part of the story....

but "gore for the sake of gore" should be considered before included in an otherwise nice diorama.
rebelsoldier
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Arizona, United States
Joined: June 30, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:20 AM UTC
before the boys in company c there was
go tell the spartans

burt lancaster and others

based on the book village at muc wa methinks

good all around movie and accurate to the premise

reb
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:32 AM UTC
Most blood tends to clot pretty quickly. So unless the person lived a long time with a 10 inch gapping wound and with the ground rubble being pretty porous I would say that you have enough blood for a Horse platoon. On the other hand we have discussed this before and treadheads have a different view than wingnuts. Way too much blood. JackFlash out.
slodder
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North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:48 AM UTC
Nice thread guys - Thanks
PLMP110
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Alabama, United States
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 04:24 AM UTC
I have been a field paramedic for 15 years. In that time, as you can imagine, I have seen too many fatalities from any cause you can think of. Here is the simple physiological truth. Dead bodies do not bleed. Once the heart stops beating, bleeding ceases. Unless the injured lives for a while after the injury, external blood loss will be minimal.

I have seen bodies killed in the most brutal fashion with minimal blood loss. On the other hand, an elderlty patient with a rutptured vericose vein in their leg will produce a litteral blood bath.

Sorry for the rambling, but to sum it up: bodies needn't be covered in blood to convey the loss of life. Death is an a certainty, but use some constraint when portraying it.

Patrick
SSgt1Shot
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Kentucky, United States
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 05:10 AM UTC
As a combat vetern I would like to say this ...

1. War is not sanitary, people die, people bleed, and people have to "relieve" themselves where ever they can. Often at time when to don't plan on it.

It seems a number of modellers including the IPMS think that all these tanks, guns, solders, and the like go to war and just move around and never fire a shot. Waiting for the Generals to play Paper, Sissors, Rock to see who wins. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

True some dioramas I've seen depecting blood and some movies too are not realistic. Blood doesn't shoot (no pun) out like a garden hose on full blast nor does the human body contain 10-20 gallons (37-75 Liters) of blood. And true dead men don't bleed and while blood is red it turns to a dark maroon in a short time, and then to nearly black. Ever it get a cut and bleed? Look at it and see what it does.

War is not pretty, it's not cool, and for those that want to hide behind the sanity and purity of a nice clean battle are fooling themselves. Just as in the movies when 30 troops are shooting on full auto at a one guy in the open and they all miss ... it's not real. So if you are going to depect blood and loss of life in a diorama, be real.

Just my thoughts for what it's worth. Over and out.

Dave
siegmund
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Slovenia
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 08:04 AM UTC
My opinion is that dioramas should look as realistic as possible. That means: if a soldier is hit by a HE shell, his body should be ripped into pieces.

There's a good thing in this. It would teach other people that war is not a good. Sure, watching war movies is great fun, but really being in a war is not.

cheers
steeldog51
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 09:57 AM UTC
Blood eh ?
well as mentioned many times in this post blood and bowl movments dont offend me either
as was mentioned earlier it does foe me at least have to be in context and portrayed realistically
sometimes underdoing an effect such as blood can have more of a meaning than making it literal
i think a wounded soldier holding his arm with a little lood trickling through his fingers is a very nice way to say "this soldier is injured" instead of it looking quite like he is feeling his steely biceps
:-) this is what i mean about in context ,i thought your dio was very well executed for a second attempt ,it was much better than mine years ago .
however the blood for me was a little much. a horse looks dead enough if its laying on its side ,ithink personally
but this is all in the learning process ,and you will improve over time ,my second thought about blood being in context and subtle is for the sheer fact it may also cover up a real good paint job too ,so thats somethig also to bear in mind ,often people will think you are covering up mistakes as in vehicles and mud etc... all just my 2 pennies worth keep up the good work
JohnLong
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Missouri, United States
Joined: March 11, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 11:57 AM UTC
It's been pointed out so many times that a diorama is about telling a story. If the blood and gore are not part of teling that story, then it is gratuitous. That notwithstanding, too much is too much. If the gore is part of the story, then use the minimum amount to tell the story. As Shep Paine mentions in his book, too much gore and blood just looks amateurish.
AJLaFleche
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Massachusetts, United States
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 03:54 PM UTC
I guess the pics were modified, I can't get a good image.
To my eye, the blood is too red, too fresh arterial. Spilled blood on a non white surface is very dark maroon, not crimson. I know from first had. I have seen a pool of my blood in the street after crashing a bicycle and I've been in an emergency room when a woman came in with a three inch gash in her head and another guy's face was covered in blood. When I test my blood each night, it dark maroon on my finger and quite bright if I drop a bit on the white bathroom sink.
As you have depicted this, it looks like a Sam Peckinpah style movie from the late sixties to mid seventies.
As far as the guy relieving himself, some things just don't need to be shown.
I also concur with an earlier poster about "dead" figures as I've mentioned before. A dead body looks very different from an upright figure lying down. The sculptor had treated the effects of gravity to be pulling from head to toe, and this is not the same as a upone or prone figure. The position of a dead body on the ground blends itself with the ground and surroundings. Back in the spring of 1979, I came across a woman who'd been hit by a truck the night before, open abrasions, no blood; strangely relaxed posture.
bf443
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JAC HOBBIES
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Idaho, United States
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 05:46 PM UTC
I'll follow Shep Paines advise "A little blood goes a long way" Someone awhile back posted several photos of a M4 crew bailing out of their tank. One of the crew had a amputated lower leg from the penetrating enemy round. I think it was presented in a responsible and reasonable way, the end result it was very convincing.
ziggy
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 05:53 PM UTC
I really think thats the last taboo subject left in modeling (concentration camps) and I belive that thier is some sicko out there ,that is actively makeing one what do you think?
Tarok
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Victoria, Australia
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 06:19 PM UTC
I think it interesting how certain topics always come up again and again. There was a fairly lengthy and hot debate about this about 6 months ago which got quite nasty... in fact I don't recall seeing the dio which was the root of the discussion (Would actually like to see it though).

My stand point... as long as it's realisticly done (and I don't mean Tarantino like) why not? It is a very real part of battle, and that is what our hobby ultimately about...

Major_Goose
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Kikladhes, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: September 30, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 06:42 PM UTC
well , the blood, death, and "good or bad" scenes in modelling is a theme that arises every now and then .From where i stand i have to agree with Keith, meaning that most things in modelling are a matter of how well something is done . I mean i have seen many times nude figures that were awfully painted and i was offended as a modeller. But i also have seen some masterpieces and i was much delighted. Thats the same with the blood and death scenes.
The ones that are well executed and so no more or no less than what the story balance suggests are approved by my taste. Well the other ones simply pass to the bin. Being modelling over 25 years now i have seen a lot of these scenes and i have to agree that most of them were not carried out well. And thats very physicall cause , death and human pain is something instant, and extreme that its difficult to recreate successfully . So i belive that u can try , but since u dont do it well u dont display it . Also for the jumorous touches like the soldier in the WC, theyre surely adding touches of humor and interest in dios and are well accepted , at least by me.

For the specific dio , and from the few pictures i see i cannot cast a spell in detail, since i d like to see more pictures from different distances and with some detail.

Modelling is great fun, and it just deserves a touch of logic and sensitivity. Then the rest comes easily in.
Also glad that Armorama members are so serious in facing all this "different situations.

Costas
steeldog51
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 10:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I really think thats the last taboo subject left in modeling (concentration camps) and I belive that thier is some sicko out there ,that is actively makeing one what do you think?
I think even these could be done with taste and dignity
my frend's grandad liberated Belsen
and i have had many talks with him about it ,he often described with humour and passion the way those poor people exacted revenge on thier tormentors,
and how the algemien s.s. actually Cowered in corners
atthe sight of allied soldiers,
so i think the affore mentioned subject could be done .but one must be very careful not to be offensive
and keep it tasteful
 _GOTOTOP