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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Panzer IV questions
Savage
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Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 05:19 AM UTC
Recently I’ve started getting interested in the Panzer IV, and although recognition of some of the models (Ausf A-J) is difficult, with all the early and late models as well as the ‘tropical’ and other variants, there always seemed to be a pattern.

When visiting Bovington, I noticed their Panzer IV was an Ausf D with, what seemed to me to be, an L48 gun. At first I put it down to ‘Museum licence’, but have come across some info that indicates that there were a number of Ausf Ds up-gunned with L48s, as in the photo below:



Is this true? And if it is true; where did they serve and were there other versions that were up-gunned as well? One website points out that the 21st Panzer Division had similar vehicles?
Sticky
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Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 05:29 AM UTC
Do you have a better pic? This to me looks more like a G than a D. Look at the roadwheels, the drive sprocket and the Idler. A clearer shot of the front - looking for the stepped front plate, or a rear end shot would be helpfull.
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Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 06:34 AM UTC
Eric,
The Pz IV in your picture in indeed an upgunned Ausf. D. The vehicle in this picture was used as a driver's training vehicle. The markings on the right front fender indicate this.

I don't know anything about the upgunned D's being issued to combat units. However, in the last months of the war, anything that was usable at the training bases was used to fight the Allies.

Chris "toadman" Hughes
Savage
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Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 09:57 AM UTC
John, unfortunately I do not have a better photo, they are pretty rare and those that do exist are usually misfiled as other variants.

I know that many of the Ausf Gs did have Additional armour plate fitted as did the Ausf D & E and that on this photo we cannot see whether there is the stepped front, but what distinguishes this Panzer IV (to me) as an Ausf D is:

The transmission access hatches/flaps, ones fitted to the Ausf E and later were fitted with a single hinge instead of two and the hatches/flaps were flush with the hull.

From the Ausf E onwards, a new driver visor was fitted.

The front fenders on the Ausf D were rounded; later models were all more angular.

As can be seen this Pz IV has two hinges on the access flap, the old style driver’s visor and rounded front fenders.



Quoted Text

The markings on the right front fender indicate this.



Thanks Chris, any chance you have more photos of these vehicles.

On the Tank Museum’s website they speculate the ‘their’ Pz IV was also most likely a driver training vehicle and it also has a similar layout as can be seen below:

Sticky
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Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 10:06 AM UTC
I agree with the brake vent access hatches, I cannot see the drivers visor. It certainly does have some mish mash of Ausf indicators. If you look closely the lower hull seems to have applique armor on it as well.
Sticky
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Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 10:13 AM UTC
Check this out. This is an upgraded E

http://www.ww2mmrefphotos.com/photos/GERMAN/armor/panzerivbl.jpg
Savage
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Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 01:01 PM UTC


Quoted Text

brake vent access hatches



Makes sense! Told you I was new at this. My references (books ordered, but still on their way) call them transmission access flaps.


Quoted Text

If you look closely the lower hull seems to have applique armor on it as well.



Zusatzpanzer / Zusatzplatten or supplemental armour, from what I have read, this was fitted to Ausf D, E & G, plus many tank were upgraded in the field as well.

From what I have read, it seems only Ausf Es had lower hull armour added. Here again, Bovington’s PZ IV also has lower appliqué armour and it is an Ausf D hull



Also, from what I have seen, when Zusatzpanzer is fitted to Ausf D, it has the distinctive ‘square’ hole without the driver’s visor (I know sometimes there were also just two plates added to the side of Ausf Ds driver’s visor) being seen as in the photo above. With the Ausf E and Zusatzpanzer added, the driver’s visor is clearly visible, as seen below.




Are these observations correct?

John thanks for the help and that photo, this helps me quite a bit.
Hoovie
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Posted: Monday, February 28, 2005 - 01:19 PM UTC
Hi~
My book says the long barrel "F' model
was 22nd panzer DAK!
However that looks like from Europe?
Ron
Biggles2
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 05:17 PM UTC
I would say this is an Aus D modified at about the same time as the Aus G was being produced, by the facts that the gun is an L 43( not L 48) as introduced on the G's, the drive gear is from the F and G model runs, and it has twin Bosch headlights and the spare wheel rack both of which were also introduced on the G's. The chassis itself is a D from the fact that it has a barely visible stepped front plate with the spaced armor held on with 12 bolts concealing the driver's visor, and it has the raised transmission inspection hatches. On closer inspection, it appears the whole turret might be from a G, or at least from an E onwards, as the conical roof signal port near the cupola is absent, and the cupola itself seems to be the heavier model also introduced on the E models. It also has the 20mm bolted-on side armor plates of the Aus E. This seems to be a 'Heinz 57' variant, rebuilt from scraps (from the spares box!).
Henk
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 06:51 PM UTC
This is a typical example of the German practice of upgrading each AFV which was brought back for repair with the latest improvements. The hull is obvious D version: raised brakebelt inspection covers (for that's what they are) with single hinge, no ball mount for hull MG and the stepped front plate. Biggles also correctly pointed out the bolt on hull side armour. Turret looks indeed like a G version, with both gunner and loader vision ports to the front and the dubble hatch for the cupola.

Cheers
Henk
Drader
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:20 PM UTC
Bovington's Panzer IV is basically an Ausf D, upgraded with an L/48 gun and applique armour.

http://www.d-daytanks.org.uk/tanks/Panzer-IV.html

The cupola is the 'dustbin' type of the D, which was replaced by one with sliding shutters in the Ausf E, as shown in the last picture in Savage's post.

Bovington's tank came from a driver training school, hence the NSKK on the front of the RH trackguard

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2871

And is unlikely to have seen action in that form, being captured at the end of the war. A couple of Bovington's other German tanks were also recovered from testing grounds - the Tiger II and the Porsche-suspension Jagdtiger.

Hope this helps.
Drader
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:27 PM UTC
Oh yeah, forgot to say - the tank in the original post is very likely to be Bovington's taken at the time of capture.

The Tank Museum used to have a genuine Ausf F2/G from Tunisia, but they traded it back to Munster around 1960. The old Airfix Panzer IV looks like it was based on it.

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