Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Ok, now I'm a bit confused....OD Green
M-60-A3
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Posted: Monday, April 04, 2005 - 10:45 AM UTC
blaster76,
Most logical reply in this thread (with no offence meant to any one else).
I use MM OD and after finishing several kits, I don't think any two came out the same.
I, too, served in the army (don't remember much, wasn't a "super trooper" back then), but I do remember seeing vehicles painted and touched up with several shades of the same color.
Joe
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Monday, April 04, 2005 - 11:37 AM UTC
...And of course, the recommended model paint manufacturers product comes out exactly the same each & every batch doesn't it? LOL. Next topic, Field Grey?!!
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, April 04, 2005 - 11:49 AM UTC
You guys need to let it go. Pick the OD paint you like best and spray it on your model. It is only a hobby.
melon
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Posted: Monday, April 04, 2005 - 12:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You guys need to let it go. Pick the OD paint you like best and spray it on your model. It is only a hobby.




Amen.

What difference does it really make anyway? After a few coats of wash and filters, some drybrushing and pigments, it will have a unique color shade anyway.
JPTRR
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#051
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Posted: Monday, April 04, 2005 - 12:17 PM UTC
[quote]I do have the article and Steve did NOT note that the MM colour was the best for an WW2 UA AFV model. Tamiya XF62 is the best match for the official wartime paint chip, if painted on a full size vehicle. On a 1:35 kit, it does look too dark so needs lightening, with either buff or dark yellow. Since OD is simply a mix of several colours (and not a green, as noted before), dark yellow is a good choice. [quote]

Hi Martinez,

Thanks for the correction.

Could you tell me the issue? I saw it last year and the club member who has it won't let me see it again. I want to backorder the magazine for the article.

In the chart he provided, didn't he say MM was closest for scale, out of the bottle?
dogload
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Posted: Monday, April 04, 2005 - 09:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Humbrol #155 is NOT the correct shade of OD.



Erm, how about Humbrol 86 and 116, both of which I've seen suggested? (I've tried 86 on braille scale and trying 116 on my Tam Jeep at the minute).
I have used 155 on all my US afvs so far, and no one has said that they are wrong (yet! Perhaps that's just politeness! :-) )

Now, what about SCC15 then...? :-) :-) :-)
Drader
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Posted: Monday, April 04, 2005 - 10:21 PM UTC
For your SCC 15 needs scroll down this page

http://www.mafva.org/britishcamo3.asp

Humbrol 159 is their stab at SCC 15, under the fictional name of Khaki Drab, dating from the days when research was a shadow of what it is now. Terry Wise had a bash at sorting out late WW2 British colours in 'D-Day to Berlin' but got in a bit of a mess(check the note at the bottom of this page)

http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/tank_museum/xcamo_ww2usa.htm

For a list of the original Humbrol Authentics and their equivalents, have a look here

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_humbrolauthentic.htm

Much innocent fun can be had tracing the origins of some of the newer Humbrol colours. Strangely the precursor of 155 doesn't appear on the list, the only equivalents given are Axis aircraft colours....




greatbrit
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Posted: Monday, April 04, 2005 - 10:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text

LOL, say it isn't so Steve. Next you will be telling these guys that the 19 year old kids painting the tanks (after duty hours because they are on the First Sergeant's poo-poo list) didn't do it with the utmost care and pride.



hehe, also dont forget those little things called the sun and rain.

my companies vehicles (various land rovers and bedford trucks) are kept in garages, cleaned and washed down after every use and meticulously maintained-yet they are all manner of different shades, even down to the doors being a different shade to the cabs etc. now this is with paint produced under strict NATO standards-not 1940's wartime-and on vehicles that probably do less than 5000 miles per year.

as far as im concerned, if it looks about right then im not going to complain if it doesnt match the official paint chip

regards

joe
Snowhand
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 08:23 AM UTC
http://tx4.us/moacolor.htm

A big collection of links pertaining color/ colour

Further research showed me that:

federal standard FS595a didn't exist until 1956.

RAL has existed since the '20s

RAL actually describes which pigments MUST be used, and in which quantities.

IMPS stockholm doesn't even have FS 34047 stored on it's site :-)

The gaps in the FS list are there because the colors aren't invented yet.

The gaps in the RAL list are there because the colors are discontinued.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 09:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Next you will be telling these guys that the 19 year old kids painting the tanks (after duty hours because they are on the First Sergeant's poo-poo list) didn't do it with the utmost care and pride.



hehe, also dont forget those little things called the sun and rain.



I wasn't going to speak to this, but I couldn't help myself. :-)

While all these discussions are, of course, true enough, you still can't paint your tank any old colour green you like. There are bounding concepts of shade and brightness that define a range that is generally acceptable as a base OD colour. All the weathering and slack application and manufacturers' spec drift and any other factors that take place do so with the original OD spec as their start point.

ANA613 is (if'n I remember correctly) the Army Air Corps OD spec and it is a lighter spec shade than the OD used on Army equipment. Significantly lighter and greener.

If you start from an ANA 613 base then you shouldn't do too much of the lightening that takes place with the sun & exposure. You also shouldn't do too much of the yellowing that shows dust & dirt ground into the finish.

FS34087 is the post war era OD and is greener than WW II OD. The recipe for WW II OD is just yellow ocre and black. That's why adding white to lighten OD gets you a grey tone as opposed to a lighter OD. You need to add yellow to really lighten it. It's also why starting from a too-green base makes it harder to get that green/brown tone that is a good OD.

These are just examples. Yes, the shades vary in an infinite variety, but they will vary from the base shade in a bell curve distribution. Most will vary only a modest bit from the basic OD, so if you don't start near the right shade, the rest of your weathering will produce odd looking results. WW II US tanks were painted with a good quality paint that in the 2-3 years most existed really didn't fade terribly much and didn't flake off much either (except from the obvious wear points). All thise things come into play when saying that the colour varied a lot.

Stating that the Tamiya OD is the most correct basic spec shade is NOT an immaterial discussion. It is the central point from which the rest of the variations start. Get it right (or mostly right) and the rest of the job of creating a realistic finish becomes much easier.

My 2 cents

Paul
JPTRR
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 12:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

RAL has existed since the '20s RAL actually describes which pigments MUST be used, and in which quantities. The gaps in the RAL list are there because the colors are discontinued.



Hi Snowhand,

The Bovington Tank Museum, in commissioning RAL to reproduce the colors on its Tiger I, notes that today's RAL colors are not the RAL colors of WWII--they were lost. Match up the RAL colors/numbers of WWII with the RAL colors/ numbers today, and there are some discrepencies. RAL

Sabot
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 01:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

FS34087 is the post war era OD and is greener than WW II OD. The recipe for WW II OD is just yellow ocre and black. That's why adding white to lighten OD gets you a grey tone as opposed to a lighter OD. You need to add yellow to really lighten it. It's also why starting from a too-green base makes it harder to get that green/brown tone that is a good OD.



Good information to know Paul, thanks. The jist of my portion of the quote above goes back to some practical experience painting an M60A3TTS armor battalion in Germany. We never had enough of the earth brown so when it started to get low, soldiers mixed in some green, black and sand until there was a brownish color. That's all, no hidden agenda in my comments.
jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 01:20 AM UTC
There could also be (theoretically) a conflict between the OLD FS Numbers and the more modern. Correct me if i'm wrong, but weren't the FS paint colors revised about 1947?..Jim
Delbert
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 01:23 AM UTC
ok whew.. what i get out of this is that...everyones right and no one is wrong..

putting away stick now.......
tankmodeler
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 04:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There could also be (theoretically) a conflict between the OLD FS Numbers and the more modern. Correct me if i'm wrong, but weren't the FS paint colors revised about 1947?..Jim



Actually, Jim, I think the FS system _started_ in about 1947. Earlier than that were was no formal unified US Federal gov't standard. That's why there was an ANA standard and an Army Standard and, and, and....

FS595 has been updated twice since its original issue, which is why we are at FS595b now. I have a FS595a fan deck at home & I'll be buggered if I'm going to sift through it to find the differences. :-)

Robin,

I completely understand the concept of the squaddies adding anything needed to finish the job while not overly irritating the CSM or the QSM while still getting to the club in time for multi beers. :-) I'm just speaking from the point of view of the majority of vehicles. That old bell curve covers a lot of ground, but only a very small number of the overall population will vary greatly from the basic specification.

Paul
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 04:52 AM UTC
Is this post eveg going to die? I think we have now beat the old horse carcas into a bloody pulp.

Pick a shade of OD you like and go with it. There is no perfect OD. Different manufacturers of vehicle, mixes of paint, weather, the aignment of the sun and moon, etc., etc. causes paint to change or appear different.

This is not rocket science, pick an OD shade and go with it.
jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 04:58 AM UTC
Oh c'mon Gino, this is the modeling fraternity's answer to the medieval debate in the Vatican about how many angels could dance on the head of a needle... There are three, the correct color of Panzer Grey, OD and for the figure modelers, Confederate Butternut...

It's all good clean (Federally Standardized) fun...Jim
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 05:42 AM UTC
:-) :-) :-) PC-10.... been debated since WW1....... :-) :-) :-) :-) as I roll on the floor........
keenan
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 06:13 AM UTC
Odie, green...


Yep, that's the best I got...

Shaun
Snowhand
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Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 07:00 AM UTC
ROFL :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Yes, I am aware that the contemporary RAL colors are not the RAL colors that were used during WW2.

It's quite conceiveable that all info about those colors has been lost due to the many bombardments during WW2
JPTRR
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#051
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Posted: Friday, April 08, 2005 - 04:48 AM UTC
Thumbing through Roger Freeman's book MIGHTY EIGHTH IN COLOR I came across a fun photo for this topic. USAAF air base, a B-17 on approach on a sSunny, clear day. Photo is focused, no graininess nor deterioration. Like a publicity shot. In the foreground are two OD Dodge ambulances parked side by side.

One ambulance is approx FS 34087, but a bit green. The one rght next to it is a very khaki shade of OD--anyone recall Pactra's XF-49 'Military green'? A bit greenern than that.

Side by side, a few feet apart. Not enough for scale effect. Both clean.

If you have the book, I will tell you the page # (its at home right now...).
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:12 PM UTC
To put an end to one of the endless debates....
buy a can of paint..... look at it..... see batch number....
buy a can of paint..... look at it..... see different batch number...... same paint, same manufacture, same color.......
Why do you think Mr. Happy Professional House Painter matches the batch numbers before he paints your lovely cape cod????

DUH.... so you don't end up with a two tone house... same paint, same color, same manufacture........and they used the same paint chip........ Standard, everyday, no custom mixed color, same color, different tone, different value, different batch number. Do you think the manufacture has nothing better to do than waste time putting batch and lot numbers on paint cans? OR maybe they really know something?
Delbert
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Posted: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 01:13 AM UTC
Welcome to the Thread that just won't die....

Hey all a quick question..

What about those of us who think 1 color of Olive Drab isn't enough..

For Instance. My current project an M10 GMC...

Base Coated with Model Master Olive Drab Ana 613

(to dark .. wait maybe not)..

Dull coated then givin a black Oil wash.. and givin some pastel weathering.

Mist coated with a very thin Model Master Faded Olive Drab to act as a filter to lighten up the base coat...

Markings Airbrushed on.. then chipped and will faded with a light misting of an earth tone over the vehicle.

Some areas will be lightly sprayed with Model master Olive drab fs34087 to break up the basecoat.

this is almost all done.. and so far it looks great.. but I'm not through.. after all this work for the perfect od paint color and weathering.. I'll cover up most of it with some slapped on whitewash.............

I say let us each and every one enjoy his olive drab as best we can............


armorguy
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Posted: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 02:01 AM UTC
I'm going to throw my 2 or 3 cents in...just because everyone else is. :-)

modelman62, most have come to the conclusion that there's not a correct answer. However, back to your original question, I will give you a little bit of information from my experience to maybe help you make your decision.

In my experience with my particular bottles of paint that I bought in the Model Master line, the ANA613 looked very grey to me. The 34087 looks more like what I commonly think of as OD (more of a yellowish-green).