Field artillery diorama construction questions….. Could be extended to other implements.

I’ve seen a lot of dioramas with anti-tank guns, and dug in artillery and I don’t recall ever seeing a shovel taken off the gun or stuck in the dirt. Ranging sticks – same thing.
Is it me or do we seem to build our kits then put them together as separate ‘entities’? Or am I wrong in the use and stowage of engineering equipment. Would the soldiers be so disciplined that they dig in thier gun and return thier tools back to thier stowage....

What are your thoughts????..... Do share..

Scott,

I think the answer would have to depend a lot on the context.
Speaking exclusively about WW2 here, I think you would find a lot more hasty entrenchments and artillery positions set up by the Germans than by the Soviets or the Western Allies. The Soviets were too tied to doctrine to have to make hasty positions and the British and the Americans never really had to. The Soviets kept their artillery to the rear to use it in massive WW1 style bombardments and the Western Allies, late in the war, had the advantage of total air domination and frankly didn’t do anything “hasty.”
The Germans, however, were always in a “shoot and scoot” mode until the very end of the war. I have recently read about several occasions where one AT gun or assault gun set up in an advantageous position supported by a small squad of infantry with panzerfausts would delay an American armored company for days.
I think you are exactly right, though. Most of the dioramas I have seen are way too orderly.

Good Q Scott and thanks for asking.

Shaun

BTW: I am currently working on a diorama with a dug in German assault gun and that small squad with panzerfausts…

Good point, although I have never done a dio with a dug in position I can't recall ever seeing one done with the shovel out. I have seen the range markers placed, something to think about if I ever attempt it.
Regards,
Robert

Shaun - excallent perspective. Love the history. I have been reading about the Soviet view of having huge quantities of artiliery being well dug in to support thier battle groups. They would definitely have nice well done positions with time to put things away.

You're right about the Allies, nothing hasty, but were they tidy enough to put things away. WIth the idea of quantity over quality (ie LOTS of Shermans vs. Tigers) would they care to be careful with a shovel.

The Germans - hmmm, lots of chance for a shovel to be just stitting about.

Some more to chew on...

Most artillery positions would be too big to dig by hand. They would have been dug in by some type of engineer equipment; bulldozer, tank with a dozer blade, etc. You could see a shovel out to dig individual fighting positions near the main position though.

On the range poles, they are usually set out at least 50 meters from the site of the gun for the first one, and 100 meters for the second set of poles. Most dioramas are not that large. Also, range poles are a secondary means of directional control, the primary is a collimator , which sits about 15 meters from the gun at a 45 degree angle off the front of whichever side the site is on. The collimator sits on a low tripod, about 18" high and is a cylindrical shaped tube (about 12" long) that has a graduated scale inside that can be read in the site. I have seen some dios that included a collimater, again too close, but it was there.

Hope that is as clear as mud.

In Iraq, I never saw a self-propelled system dug in. In Baghdad, my unit used SEE (Small Emplacement Excavator)trucks to dig in some towed pieces (105's). So, hand tools weren't used unless absolutely necessary from what I saw. And, typically we put them back right away to minimize loss and theft.

Have to agree with Brent as well. Didn't even discuss tactics. When you are on the offensive, as we were in Iraq and the Allies mainly were in WWII, you usually don't have time to dig in. You usually only dig in when in a defensive position and have lots of time to do so. Also, the longer you are in position, the more you improve your position. Again, most of this is not done with hand shovels. You may see hand shovels around if the position improvement includes sand bags though. A good example of this would be Vietnam Firebases that had everything sand bagged in.

Here are some pictures of British 6 Pnd A/T guns and 25 Pnd Field guns (these could inspire some nice dio's):


British 6 Pdr Mk IV A/T gun - France 1944

Perhaps it's just me, but I think this photo could have been a bit staged. It all looks a bit too neat, and the 4th and 5th gun crew members are missing.


British 25 Pdr Field Artillery - Africa


British 25 Pdr Field Artillery - Africa

Sorry about the graininess of the pics, but I think they serve their purpose for this post. Note the placing of the equipment and discarded shells in the 2nd picture particularly.



P.S. I have no idea where I found these pictures, so I can take no credit fot them...

Your question caused me to go dig through some old photos of my days as a 13B. In every photo where you can see anything, all the BII are stowed. When you're lugging 98 lb. projos around, the last thing you want is to trip and drop it on your (or your buddie's) foot. Whether it was the M102, M119, or M198, I honestly can't recall a time when I saw a shovel used for anything other than to bury commo wire, or dig a hole for the bucket of water. Now THERE is a missing item on dios.
We used a sledge on the M102 for the baseplate stakes and limiting stakes at the back of the trail, and rod sections for jacking the wheels on all of the towed pieces. It all got put away after use. Naturally the M109A5 did its own digging.
Now if you want to talk mortars, I buried the baseplate on the 82's almost every time in Afghanistan. True, a few shots usually sink the baseplate, but with the number of misfires with Soviet ammo (maybe because we found most of it buried), we wanted it to stay put every time we had to remove the tube from the baseplate.

When I was in the artillery (155 mm towed howitzer) We used shovels for digging holes for the baseplate and the spades. Hammers for nailing down the camo nets. All tools were returned to their stowage when everything was in place. We never knew when we had to make a fast exit. Forgetting or leaving an important tool behind could be disastrous.

Great stuff everyone. That sure gives everyone a lot to think about in dioramas and even static pieces.

Do you dig the spades in, to you include measuring devices to close, do you model procedural correctness or 'field modifications'

As a view of dioramas I love details, stuff here and there. I guess I would tend towards having the measuring devices at least out and about. I would also at least dirty up the engineering gear as if it were just used. Camo stakes, empty shells - and water and buckets...

If you like details, you may enjoy these shots:
http://photos.yahoo.com/eighteenbravo2003
Look in the "Arty Pics" Album. You'll see a typical setup for a M198. Note in one pic (Chilling) the primer bandolier hanging to the right of the breech. You'll also see the water bucket and swab. The bucket is also used inside any of the M109 series, or any other towed gun/SPG using separate loading ammo. Hence it is not appropriate for the M102 or the M119.
You can tape several sheets of paper to the left trail-Safety T's (which set your range limits and tell you not to shoot), expended ammo sheets, and the like. In that vein, in the last photo, barely visible on the side frame, are a bunch of tic marks done in grease pencil. There are also tic marks by the gunner's sight on the tower. If you want to do a whole dio with the prime mover, add a burn barrel as well, either a 55 gallon drum, or just a plain large trash can. You can scratch the collimator or swipe one from the Royal Models M109 upgrade.
HTH

I agree.. I have yet to see a good accurate artillery dio.. people tend to forget that while the fighting is indirect, it doesn't mean that the gun and it's crew are sitting on their buts all the time.

In an artillery position, a lot of things are going on at the same time. Especially when getting into, or moving out of position.

And yes, while aiming poles are too far away for a 1/35 dio, the collimator should be there. Also, very rarely do I see hessian tape and camo nets on built up artillery pieces.

And yes, we would put our tools back. a: you'd know where they are should you need them, and b: you have more control on how your camoflage works.. imagine... a perfectly camouflaged M109 with crew, given away by a spade that was upside down.

Richard Renes
Former M109 gunner Dutch Horse Artillery

The period and scenario will also make a difference. In the early '70s doctrine specifically called for "Improvement of Position" as one of the duties of the crew. The assumption was that you would expect to be in one place for some time, so "dig -in". Realization that counter-battery radar made staying in the same place you shot from not so good for your health, and a shift in doctrine from concentrating more on defense, to the offense starting with "AirLand Battle" in the early to mid '80s changed that.

If you are doing a dio of a combat scene, say from either of the Gulf Wars, then you probably won't see much "stuff".

But if you did a diorama of a training exercise, say in Germany in the mid 70's, you'd see camo nets, ammo set up behind the howitzer, etc. Going back to Vietnam, you'd see "hardened" sites that were semi-permanent.

Tom

do you think geography could be a factor when thinking about diggin in a towed or even SP gun? As I was looking at the picture of the British gun in N. Africa I thought, wow, that soil is rocky and hard why would you waste time and energy digging into hard soil? And i wouldnt see the point of digging in a large artillery piece, they can be miles from the front and have no immediate threats that would cause them to dig in....my 2 cents

Usually, engineers can dig in almost any ground, with the exception of solid rock. If you are in a defensive position, it is best to dig in. This means the enemy is coming at you and could break through your forward defenes, however, the greater threat to artillery is counter-battery fire, the enemy's artillery. It is still a good idea to dig in if you are going to be sitting in the same place for a while.

Just some other suggestions:

M198's -
Cammo nets go up pretty quick, over gun and prime mover.

ammo, stored vertically up on dunnage, and under a tarp

fire direction center - humvee with trailor

spades dug in about half way

hand dug "ranger grave" survivabilty positions (always)

"powder monkey" holding extra powder bags over his head, standing next to powder pit, hole in ground where the extra bags wait to be burned

M109A6 -

Palladins are the essence of temporary. There is hardly any evidence of their position out side of the track. No nets, they just pull back into the tree line, and they are spread out over a 500m area.

Hope that sparks some inspiration

scott