Kind of a basic question, but what are the red and white poles used for that I have seen attatched to mobile field guns such as the Hummel? I have heard them called ranging poles before but not really sure if that term applies to these.
Lee
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What are ranging poles?
captvoodoo
Joined: August 31, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 03:50 PM UTC
ukgeoff
Joined: May 03, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 08:58 PM UTC
I may be wrong, but I belive the poles serve as bearing reference markers.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:44 PM UTC
Aiming stakes are still used and look much the same. They give a reference point for adjusting and laying in indirect fire. They are found on mortar tracks, SP and towed howitzers.
salt6
Joined: February 17, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:51 PM UTC
I sent Jim some pics of modern US poles with measurements, check and see if he still has the photos.
shiryon
Joined: April 26, 2002
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Posted: Friday, October 04, 2002 - 01:51 AM UTC
Poles are still used like the ones here on a Israeli M109
The poles I believe are150 cm divided into 15cm stripes
Josh
aKa shiryon
The poles I believe are150 cm divided into 15cm stripes
Josh
aKa shiryon
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Friday, October 04, 2002 - 03:00 AM UTC
MAJ Rob is correct. Aimong stakes are still used on all modern howitzers, mortars, and by surveyors. They are used as a referance point for laying and firing a howitzer. They are place out at about 100 meters and 200 meters off the left front of the piece. the gun is layed by setting a deflection (Measurement in mills from the azimuth of fire) off on the Pantel (Panagraphic Telescope, aka. sight) and lining up the aiming posts in the sight so they overlap and you see only one pole. They are then used to aim the piece by setting the azimuth of fire to 3200 mills and using this as a referance to adjust off of. By changing the deflection and setting it in the PanTel then lining up the aiming stakes, you have successfully adjusted the horizontal axis of the weapon.
With the above method and setting odd deflection (the verticle angle of the piece), you can engage any target within your range successfull and destroy it. And all this without ever seeing the target or being within the range of his direct fire weapons.
Isn't artillery great!!!
With the above method and setting odd deflection (the verticle angle of the piece), you can engage any target within your range successfull and destroy it. And all this without ever seeing the target or being within the range of his direct fire weapons.
Isn't artillery great!!!
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, March 30, 2019 - 12:14 PM UTC
I just found this accidentally. Old post I know, but that's how we evolve. 
To use the term "Ranging Poles" or "Ranging Stakes" is not entirely incorrect. The poles, because they are known length, (like the M16) can be used to fairly precisely calculate the PTC (piece to crest distance) The method is called subtense. It involves knowing the length of the pole, sighting to the target on one end of it, then measuring the difference in the angle when looking at the target from the other end, and using trigonometry to calculate range. It is actually more precise than estimation, and possibly more than pacing (errors can occur) and more time efficient than pacing OR measuring with a tape. Old timers used this method (Yes, I went to 13B school in 1998) but with laser range finding it's becoming a lost art.
To use the term "Ranging Poles" or "Ranging Stakes" is not entirely incorrect. The poles, because they are known length, (like the M16) can be used to fairly precisely calculate the PTC (piece to crest distance) The method is called subtense. It involves knowing the length of the pole, sighting to the target on one end of it, then measuring the difference in the angle when looking at the target from the other end, and using trigonometry to calculate range. It is actually more precise than estimation, and possibly more than pacing (errors can occur) and more time efficient than pacing OR measuring with a tape. Old timers used this method (Yes, I went to 13B school in 1998) but with laser range finding it's becoming a lost art.
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Saturday, March 30, 2019 - 12:25 PM UTC
Some additional information on ranging poles and a correction to a popular kit at:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/261601&page=1
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/261601&page=1
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, March 30, 2019 - 12:59 PM UTC
and a slightly different method:
We had three 120 mm mortars in a platoon.
A central instrument lined up (zeroed) all three mortars and they adjusted for the zero direction. When that was done the plates were placed in front of the mortar and used to aim it.
The central instrument is on the tripod on the left side.
Compass Angle Measuring device or Kompassvinkelmätare in Swedish
/ Robin
We had three 120 mm mortars in a platoon.
A central instrument lined up (zeroed) all three mortars and they adjusted for the zero direction. When that was done the plates were placed in front of the mortar and used to aim it.
The central instrument is on the tripod on the left side.
Compass Angle Measuring device or Kompassvinkelmätare in Swedish
/ Robin
18Bravo
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Posted: Saturday, March 30, 2019 - 01:45 PM UTC
We call that an aiming circle, and we use it to lay guns (or mortars) in parallel. It cannot used for ranging.
An alternate for laying the tubes when you have no aiming circle (like when you're using Soviet era weapons) is the sight to sight reciprocal lay method, which I taught the Afghan Mortar cadre in 2002. They had never seen anything like it.
An alternate for laying the tubes when you have no aiming circle (like when you're using Soviet era weapons) is the sight to sight reciprocal lay method, which I taught the Afghan Mortar cadre in 2002. They had never seen anything like it.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, March 30, 2019 - 03:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
We call that an aiming circle, and we use it to lay guns (or mortars) in parallel. It cannot used for ranging.
An alternate for laying the tubes when you have no aiming circle (like when you're using Soviet era weapons) is the sight to sight reciprocal lay method, which I taught the Afghan Mortar cadre in 2002. They had never seen anything like it.
The ranging stakes are layed with an autocollimator. Once you've registered the piece, your good to go. When you look in the eyepiece, you'll crank the barrel for what is known as " near, far line". Of course the stake is a line. Even in daylight it can be hard tell the nearest stake from the farthest. We taped standard issue right angles flashlight to the stakes. One had a green lense, and the other red. I think green was always closest, but have slept a lot since then. Besides wars are typically night shift work. We always kept a cheap torpedo level to make sure the stake were at a right angle to the earth. That is critical. We checked them every morning and changed batteries twice a week.
In WWII and Korea we used a leveling protractor placed on top the breech. That's why you see the barrel metal on them. Now you just the quadrant number and crank the barrel till the bubble is centered.
I shot outta parapets ninety percent of the time. Guns will shift inside the parapet on the first round. First couple times it's scary. You always say to yourself near far line. Even dug into dirt, you'll see displacement. One thing about issue that you knock out a gun easier by busting down the stakes than trading round for round.
Glt
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
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Posted: Saturday, March 30, 2019 - 11:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
MAJ Rob is correct. Aimong stakes are still used on all modern howitzers, mortars, and by surveyors. They are used as a referance point for laying and firing a howitzer. They are place out at about 100 meters and 200 meters off the left front of the piece. the gun is layed by setting a deflection (Measurement in mills from the azimuth of fire) off on the Pantel (Panagraphic Telescope, aka. sight) and lining up the aiming posts in the sight so they overlap and you see only one pole. They are then used to aim the piece by setting the azimuth of fire to 3200 mills and using this as a referance to adjust off of. By changing the deflection and setting it in the PanTel then lining up the aiming stakes, you have successfully adjusted the horizontal axis of the weapon.
With the above method and setting odd deflection (the verticle angle of the piece), you can engage any target within your range successfull and destroy it. And all this without ever seeing the target or being within the range of his direct fire weapons.
Isn't artillery great!!!
I like Artillery because it makes a lot of noise...
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
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Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2019 - 12:05 AM UTC
Like the artillery Sgt. said to Adrian Cronauer in the movie "Good Morning Vietnam":
"I don't care what you play, as long as you play it LOUD!"
"I don't care what you play, as long as you play it LOUD!"
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2019 - 12:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I just found this accidentally. Old post I know, but that's how we evolve.
To use the term "Ranging Poles" or "Ranging Stakes" is not entirely incorrect. The poles, because they are known length, (like the M16) can be used to fairly precisely calculate the PTC (piece to crest distance) The method is called subtense. It involves knowing the length of the pole, sighting to the target on one end of it, then measuring the difference in the angle when looking at the target from the other end, and using trigonometry to calculate range. It is actually more precise than estimation, and possibly more than pacing (errors can occur) and more time efficient than pacing OR measuring with a tape. Old timers used this method (Yes, I went to 13B school in 1998) but with laser range finding it's becoming a lost art.
As with computers, hand-held calculators and "smart phones" our Youth doesn't have to use their brains, even to perform simple addition or subtraction any more... Forget about "trig"-functions or geometry, altogether. The "next-step" will be to obliterate deductive reasoning... "Common sense" has already gone by the wayside...
Mind you, I'm all for "progress", but once "the basics" aren't taught or needed any more, "there goes the neighborhood"...
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2019 - 01:10 AM UTC
The old Squadron/Signal publication on the Brummbar, Nashorn and Hummel included an explanation of the use of aiming stakes (the Hummel being the SP 150mm howitzer,sFH18). In the case of WW2 German indirect firing, the stakes are placed to the REAR of the gun. The gunlayer looks into the sight and lines up on the aiming stakes, reads off the azimuth and deducts 180 degrees, this then shows him where the barrel is pointing.
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2019 - 01:29 PM UTC
Quoted Text
We call that an aiming circle, and we use it to lay guns (or mortars) in parallel. It cannot used for ranging.
Not sure what you mean when you say an M-2 Aiming circle cannot be used for ranging. The M-2 Aiming Circle can measure both vertical as well as horizontal angles. If you have a range pole (like an aiming stake mentioned above) with markings a known distance apart, you can measure the angle between points a known distance apart, and calculate the distance by trig. I've done surveys with an M-2 aiming circle.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2019 - 01:34 PM UTC
I stand corrected. I did not learn it at 30 level. I think it may be a 40 level task. Can you use it for site to crest then?
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, March 31, 2019 - 03:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I stand corrected. I did not learn it at 30 level. I think it may be a 40 level task. Can you use it for site to crest then?
Absolutely.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-50/Ch6.htm#p3
SdAufKla
Joined: May 07, 2010
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Posted: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 - 04:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I stand corrected. I did not learn it at 30 level. I think it may be a 40 level task. Can you use it for site to crest then?
Dude, 18Z to 18B, this just an application of the WORM formula measured vertically using the M2 rather than just using a mil reticle in a pair of binos or a spotting scope, (and I know you know how to use the WORM formula that way).
There's also no reason why you'd need to do this with mortars, anyways. You're taking overhead clearance and masking directly off the elevation readings on the sight when emplacing the mortar while sighting along the tube. The concern here is with obstructions to fire immediately out of the mortar position.
Mortars don't need to worry about the impact of the rounds on intervening high ground when engaging targets like the arty does, so there was no reason why you would have been taught to do this with the aiming circle. The arty is going to plot the dead space behind the intervening high ground (at their lowest firing elevation and charges), and mortars are what will be used to engage targets within that dead space.
The mortar FDC (with the observer sending the target elevation) will simply increase the elevation and charge to get a higher max ord to use searching fire to engage targets on the back side of high ground or down in low ground that is masked from the arty.
And the darned stakes are "aiming stakes" even if they can be used to estimate range (but then any object of a known height dimension could be used for the same purpose - even the guy who humped the "ranging stake" out to the top of the hill without doing a pace count or measuring the distance on a map could be measured with the aiming circle to calculate his range).
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 - 08:35 AM UTC
This is a bit off topic, but in the general world of measuring angles etc.
In the US "deflection" (as opposed to "azimuth") is a COUNTER clockwise horizontal angle. The "base" deflection used once the battery is laid is 3200 mils (rather than 0000/6400) the obvious reason is so you're not getting into the problem you'd have crossing back and forth either 0000 or 6400.
And of course we were all taught the "LARS" rule for deflection, i.e. "Left ADD, Right Subtract" when you're working DEFLECTION as opposed to AZIMUTH. (For the Marines out there it was Port Increase Starboard Subtract, and you can figure out the mnemonic for that
)The QUESTION is, I was detailed to be the Safety Officer (back in the days of "Yellow Helmets, you bet your Bars) for a German 8" SP unit, and I recall that for the GERMAN Army, even though they also used 3200 for the base deflection, their convention was that deflection was ALSO a CLOCKWISE horizontal the SAME as Azimuth (or RIGHT ADD LEFT SUBTRACT).
Are there any German FA vets on the forum who can confirm this the be true, or has the Bundeswehr now changed to the "LARS" rule, same as the US?
panamadan
Joined: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 - 10:23 AM UTC
A very interesting thread.
Is there a online training video that shows how to use the stakes and aiming?
Dan
Is there a online training video that shows how to use the stakes and aiming?
Dan
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 - 11:27 AM UTC
Try this thread: https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/154975&ord=&page=2
Second page, my response third from the bottom. Ignore any and all posts made by "Tony DeNazo." He was not a real person, and under his real name was evicted from the site.
Second page, my response third from the bottom. Ignore any and all posts made by "Tony DeNazo." He was not a real person, and under his real name was evicted from the site.
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