I wonder what the pronounciation of this abbreviation would be in the British Army?

Being a very hard core "Home of Armor" person.... I graduated frm High school did my AOB and part of my Advanced OT there, I hate to think that Knox won't be mecca anymore., just another base like Hood, Bragg, Stewart, and Carson. I'm interested in this new officer training program. How does it work for the new butter bars Rob? Living in barracks, small unit tactics...this sounds like a repeat of ROTC camp I went through in 70's. Is that changing too? I was at VMI at the time and I know we resented the Zoomies (Air Force guys) because they went to a special camp that was very gentlemenly and was only 4 weeks long, while we were stuck with all the other schools who hadn't been through what we had. Yearly FTX's and weekend military traing throughout our cadetship. Not that the ROTC camp was all that bad, but we did spend a lot of time in the field at Bragg.

Page 20 of this week's Army Times (23 May issue) has an article on BOLC II. Basically a branch immaterial leader's course taught by NCOs and seasoned officers. Benning, Knox, Sill and Bliss will each have two BOLC companies commanded by a major. Each company will have up to six platoons of 40 lieutenant-trainees lead by a senior captain. The cadre will be an SFC and four staff sergeants, with at least two of the NCOs from the combat arms.

Once the new 2LTs finish BOLC II, they go on to their normal branch basic courses.

Here is a link to the story: http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-853205.php

Thanks Rob...Thanks John.

Blaster76,
That is the impression I got on this new BLOC as well. Sounds like Advance Camp all over again. I went to University of Florida and we too had a very active ROTC program. Between regular ROTC and Ranger Challenge team, I did at least 1 FTX a month and lesser training at labs and other ROTC events throughout. Advance Camp was a joke and it was amazing how unprepared some of the cadets were. My take is that the commissioning sources (ROTC, Academy, and Military Schools) just aren't producing the same quality of cadets as they used to be. Could it be because many of the instructors are now civilians and not green suiters anymore? Don't know.

I agree. When I went through ROTC, we had quite a few Vietnam veteran NCOs as our instructors. We went on a couple of FTXs per semester to both Ft. Dix, NJ and West Point.

I'm still surprised at how little leadership time many officers get as lieutenants. I'm one of the fortunate ones and had a full 1½ years as a tank platoon leader, 1½ years as a tank company and HQ company XO, and so far almost six years in command (1 yr tank co., 15 months HHC, 3 yrs 4 months maint. school).

Most officers won't see 6 years in command after 20+ years in service.

Really !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the hell do they do now? I spent 16 months as a pltoon leader and 6 as a FIST chief in cross training mode. Add 6 months of the schooling then the other 5 were as an S-1. If I had stayed in for two more years, I would have gotten a company for a year to 18 months. What do the LT's and junior captains do now?

A couple things:

Museums. Not only is the Patton Museum being "left behind", so are the Transportation Museum (Eustis) and the Ordnance Museum (Aberdeen). Is there a Duck Nunter Museum at Bliss ? (I only remember the post museum). Yeah, all three(four) posts survive but the functional cnnection is lost.

Perhaps rather than following to new posts or staying put, they'll be moved & incorporated in the new US Army Museum at Belvoir ???? Now, I'm a charter life-time member of the Army Historical Foundation which is kinda the driver for the new museum, but not high enough to know any inner workings.

New Officer Training.
Post VN, we did a great job turning around education & training and thus the quality of the officer/NCO corps, but as usual we went too far. The reason so many Officers have so little leadership/command time is that they have so many schools to go to & so many other tickets to punch to be competitive -- they're just running all the time with little time to stop & learn. And you should see what that does to the poor schmucks in the Reserve Components -- they have al the same schools, but still have reserve positions & regular jobs & etc, at the same time, etc.

John

First off, they now make CPT in 36 mos. 18 mos as a 2LT, 18 mos as a 1LT. This changed about 4 years ago. With all the extra schooling now, they get less than 1 year as a 2LT in a PL job, then about 18 mos (usually less) as a CO XO and staff time before going to CCC (Captains Career Course), OAC to us old guys. Depnding on where they go aftere OAC, they may walk right into a CO/Battery/Troop command for about 12-18 mos. After that, its off to needs of the army till they make MAJ, go to ILE (new name for CGSC) and head back to a Division to be a Bn XO or S3, then needs of the Army again till LTC time, Bn Command (hopefully). before you know it, you are at 20 years and retiring. That is the current state of it.

I have a great respect for the officers and NCOs in the reserves trying to meet civilian job requirements and military requirements. Having said that, when I went to the Armor officer advance course (6 month long course+1 month long Cav Leader Course), the Reserve Component officers did a portion of the course at home via a box of books and entered our advance course a month into the course and left a month early (4 months total).

Currently, reserve officers do their advance course in two 2-week courses and get the same credit. The same staff course (CAS3) I had two years to do a huge box of books and a 9-week resident course, current reserve officers do in 8 weekend classes and a two week summer AT.

The quality/quantity of our training has dipped sharply for reserve component officers in order to make the courses fit into neat little packages that they can do in a span of one year without taking 4-6 month long tours of active duty.

John mentions it above, but here is a direct link to the blow-by-blow BRAC recommendations: http://www.defenselink.mil/brac/vol_I_parts_1_and_2.html

There are some amazing consolidations and "realignments" in this recommendation, well worth digging through if you have an interest in a particular place or function. When looking at this, remember to think "joint," "force protection" and "elimination of redundancy." It's going to be painful for some, but I think DoD and the Army will benefit in the long run.

No doubt a lot of changes going on. Couple of comments:

Having spent the last 25 of my total 30 years in the Reserve Components, I can tell you that the schooling requirements are a bit different, but then they need to be. While a lot of AC officers attend various schools in residence (meaning they are NOT assigned to a troop unit at the same time), most Reserve Officers complete the required educational courses while they are also serving in troop units. Being a company or battalion commander is challenging enough, even if you don't consider the requirements of your day job and your family. Throw in trying to do an OAC or CGSC on top of that and it gets very difficult to manage.

Several approaches have been tried, to include allowing TPU soldiers to remain assigned to their units, but perform their required drills in school, INSTEAD of with the unit, rather than in ADDITION to unit drills.

For you AC guys, think of this as being in Germany and one of your Company Commanders is TDY in the States for 12 months. But still expected to perform ALL the duties required of a commander!

Having completed 4 OACs (FA, AG, MP, and EN) as well as CGSC (no thank you on the War College) and been a commander at the O3, O5 and O6 level during that, it wasn't too much fun.

Funny thing about FA/ADA. If I'm not mistaken, at some point, many of the old "coast artillery" regiments became ADA regiments. And I also believe that for a time they were one branch. The missile was added to the crossed cannons and everybody wore the same insignia. I belive the branches separated back in the late 60's and the FA got the pure cannons back.


And it's also interesting to see the time in grade requirements for promotion changing again. Year Group '69 (height of the VN war), was 12 months as 2LT and then 12 more as 1LT. CPT was thus 24 months. My first battery commander was 3 years older than I and had about 18months time in grade and 12 in command when I reported to my unit. Between year group 69 and my year group (72) it moved back to the more "traditional" 24 months in each grade. I can see the reasons for faster promotion in war time, but it does seem to make the ability to train and season leaders much harder.

Tom

I really hate it when we speed up promotions to fill slots rather than promote on capability.

I was YG 70.
12 months to 1LT, 12 months to CPT.
Fortunately, the draw down & slow-down started about then.

I made 1LT in 12 months, but every time I got close to 12 for Cpt they added on a few months, so I made CPT at 24 mo TIG. When I did get promoted I was senior 1st LT in 3AD by some 4 months -- then just the most junior Cpt -- bummer.

Saved my bacon -- I got the chance to do all the LT type jobs and a few others -- Plt Ldr, XO, Tech Supply, Shop Officer -- so I was qualified for Cpt when it came.

The guys RIF'd were the 2-year wonders who hadn't the skills/experience to be CPT & up because they never had the chance to learn.

I followed that trend thru my career, never seek/take early promotion, but rather take the opportunity to do more jobs to build skill & knowledge.

I hated quick promotion then, I hate it now. I have problems with all the schools (yeah, good school-type education is great & necessary, but time spent away from troops NOT), all the ticket-punch. Branch-qual is earned in the field. Like I started this off with a post or two back, I think we got it right & then went too far & now our folks are just running mostly in place, learning wise.

& Rob: Yeah, an RC guy can knock out a course in no-time compared to an AC -- I used to hate the guys who did CGSC in about 6 weeks & learned nothing. Saw some AC types do it also, those not selected for resident.

OTOH, as Tom mentions, there are a whole lot more who were/are doing the USAR School / TD / correspondence courses over 1-2 years, most while still holding down a troop unit slot, many as Commander, and with a young family, and still getting their civilian carrier going and the burn-out rate is just a bit too much.

I did AWC like that -- 2 year correspondence -- 15K pages of reading, 30+ papers, 2-2week sessions. Got my 1st box of books (Myers Briggs BS) the day before I left for Beaumont TX to receive the 25th ID & move them to Ft Chaffee for JRTC, carried that box & subsequent ones with me while my (DA) civilian job sent me TDY one place & the USAR sent me other places and wifey wanted me home fixing stuff .... the good news is it kept me out of bars, well some ....

I have no idea what this post is all about, but here it is ....

John

Howdy, John. I think you have developed Diarhea of the keyboard. It is very common among older Army guys like yourself. Out here.

John, I've said it before and I'll say it again. My hat is off to anyone who did that rat race of the AWC. I have 8 or 10 very close friends from my time in the USAR who did that. It was an absolute killer. And only two were selected for promotion to GO. At least later graduates were getting credit for a Masters Degree in what, International Relations(?).

Tom

i did my scout school trng at know in 69, then it ws off to the races overseas, then back to knox in late 70. at that time i was assigned to the 5bn/33rd armor officer bassic training school.

methinks the guys processing thru the school hated us in the field, lol, we did most if not all of the field training for them. most interesting part was being around georgie jr, that man was dep commander at the time, he wore the balckhorse on both shoulders of his tankers jacket[ yes it was still used then], and no one argued with him about it.

enough past times on that.

knox holds many memories for me, most pleasant, and a post i never minded returning to.......

reb

I met Patton IV when girlfriends little dog strayed into back yard I was senior in HS at time. He comes up and says "Who the Hell are you?" "I'm a Joyce G** D**it and proud of it." He laughs and says "I know your old man...best damn medic in the Army!" You've got that right sir !" Also at the time MG R. Irby was post commander and COL W. Buchannon was BDE Cmdr of 194th. Both were VMI grads and in 72 both were present at VMI as the Superintendent and Commandant respectively. OH yea it was real nice knowing that those two always had an eye on me...all 4 years

Oh, another fun fact...in late 80's I went to an armor conference. They were having an old POst Commanders reunion. I had a buddy with me at the reception. The present cmdr was a VMI grad and of course I knew Sutherland and Desobry and as before Irby..so I get waltzed right up to the present CG by Irby and his wife for a formal intro. All the old CMdrs also recognized me and came up and said hello and exchanged like pleasantries. My bud's jaw was dropped the whole time. Of course when we got back to our unit he let everyone know about my "connections".

Whoa, moving armor from Knox? I suppose then that the Marine Corps will be moving their armor school along with them to Benning?

I agree about the 'megabase' idea being a bad one, aside from natural disasters, we should remember Pearl Harbor when it comes to thinking of having all our eggs in one basket.

Yeah, Consolidation is a great thing until you run out of room or the congressmen and women get involved. It's funny watching them preach as long as its not their congressional district that's involved.

Semper FI
Andy