One of the recommendations that the Department of Defense made to the BRAC commission was to relocate the US Army Armor Center from Ft. Knox to Ft. Benning and create a combined infantry and armor maneuver center of excellence.
Ft. Knox will be home to a new combat arms maneuver brigade. This brigade will come from either the 1st Armor Division or 1st Infantry Division currently stationed in Germany. The brigade will be a modular brigade (Stryker).
This may or may not happen before I retire so I'm not too worried about it.
Incidently, the Air Defense Aritllery School will relocate from Ft. Bliss, TX and combine with the Field Artillery School at Ft. Sill, OK to create a Net Fires Center.
Hosted by Darren Baker
End of Armor at Ft. Knox?
Sabot
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 06:41 AM UTC
CRS
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 07:19 AM UTC
Say it ain't so Robin. Knox was the "HOME of ARMOR" 
MikeMummey
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 07:24 AM UTC
Howdy Robin. Who would have thought that the Home of Armor would get its Mission booted to Gruntland. My concern is the limited amount of ranges at Ft Benning will be a factor in both training(schools) and readiness(operational forces). Like when the 194th Armored Brigade was at Knox. It would also seem to make more sense to put the Red Legs at Ft Bliss. A lot more multi use impact and manuever area available. One look at a map tells the story. I hope someone in the Army is going to troubleshoot the decisions and raise the BS flag if necesary. It does not make sense, but then since politics are involved it does not have to. "Tanks" for the scoop. Out here. 
sopmod6
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 07:26 AM UTC
Realignment and Base change is better than a complete shutdown of facilities. Hopefully the impact of job losses isn't too bad.
Sabot
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 07:39 AM UTC
Actually, Knox will gain more than it loses. The personnel commands (Active, enlisted and Reserve) are slated to come here from St. Louis, Alexandria, Indianapolis, as well as the Army Assessions Command and ROTC Command from Ft. Monroe.
Also the Army Reserve's main training school (ARRTC) at Ft. McCoy, WI will relocate to Knox as well.
There will be a distinct change in the "flavor" or Ft. Knox. Instead of being mainly a training base for armor officers and crewmen, it looks like it will be where all the Army's paper work will be kept and personnel decisions made (Recruiting Command is already here).
And there will still be soldiers in the modular brigade to do post clean up and other important post support missions.
Also the Army Reserve's main training school (ARRTC) at Ft. McCoy, WI will relocate to Knox as well.
There will be a distinct change in the "flavor" or Ft. Knox. Instead of being mainly a training base for armor officers and crewmen, it looks like it will be where all the Army's paper work will be kept and personnel decisions made (Recruiting Command is already here).
And there will still be soldiers in the modular brigade to do post clean up and other important post support missions.
sopmod6
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 07:51 AM UTC
If it is so, then StL is most likely to lose ARPERCEN then...
It is understandable to have all the paperwork in one place. No more shopping for your Branch officer.
It is understandable to have all the paperwork in one place. No more shopping for your Branch officer.
Sabot
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 08:25 AM UTC
ARPERCEN is a dead acronym. They combined AR-PERSCOM, PERSCOM and the Enlisted Records Center into the Human Resources Command years ago. STL is losing what used to be AR-PERSCOM to Ft. Knox (as I mentioned above).
panamadan
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 09:10 AM UTC
It might not be a bad idea-let's remember that we are here to support the grunts. Getting the officers and NCO's thinking about how the other branch works might be a good thing. Dan, a retired CDAT.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 09:27 AM UTC
Here at Fort Leavenworth, we gain about 200 troops and a handful of civilian positions under the BRAC recommendation. They will shut down correctional facilities at Fort Knox, Fort Sill and Lackland AFB and form a joint regional correctional facility, adding on to the existing United States Disciplinary Barracks. This was already being discussed outside the BRAC process, so it was probably going to happen anyway. Before the BRAC was announced today, there were all sorts of rumors that we might gain the War College and/or the Sergeants Major Academy, but it's not part of the plan this time.
Fort Riley is excited to be re-gaining the HQ of the 1st Infantry Division. It will be nice to have Riley be the home of the Big Red One again.
Fort Riley is excited to be re-gaining the HQ of the 1st Infantry Division. It will be nice to have Riley be the home of the Big Red One again.
Sabot
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
This was already in the works. The officer corps training system is being broken up into three phases called Basic Officer Leadership Course or BOLC (pronounced BO-LICK).It might not be a bad idea-let's remember that we are here to support the grunts. Getting the officers and NCO's thinking about how the other branch works might be a good thing. Dan, a retired CDAT.
BOLC I is the traditional ROTC, West Point, OCS or National Guard state officer academy.
BOLC II is a branch immaterial phase that sends all new 2LTs to either Benning, Knox or Leonard Wood for an intensive field leadership course where they live in barracks and do small unit tactics. Benning has started the pilot program last year, we were supposed to start this fall.
BOLC III was going to be the branch specific traditional OBC that LTs go to now.
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:22 AM UTC
If they have any spare Tanks, they could ship one to me.....I promise to wash it weekly, and have my mechanic change oil every 3000 miles. :-) :-) :-)
Although I'm not in favor of all these base closings and realigments, I guess they are simply becoming a fact of life, especially for the guys serving in the leaner, meaner, cleaner military services.
OH Rob, if they can't spare a tank, a humvee would be treated just as well...... and I promise never to repaint it yellow. :-) :-) :-) If they wish to add a bar or two of spare gold.... well.... that I promise to spend, and boost the enconomy.....
Although I'm not in favor of all these base closings and realigments, I guess they are simply becoming a fact of life, especially for the guys serving in the leaner, meaner, cleaner military services.
OH Rob, if they can't spare a tank, a humvee would be treated just as well...... and I promise never to repaint it yellow. :-) :-) :-) If they wish to add a bar or two of spare gold.... well.... that I promise to spend, and boost the enconomy.....
gcdavidson
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 02:47 PM UTC
Interesting about the ADA and FD Arty schools combining. We did the same in 1995, and 10 years later, we are splitting them up again. In fact, AD will pretty much cease to exist in Canada as the ADATS become long range TD's. Because we all know how often you can engage a tank at 8km in complex terrain..sorry...went off on a rant there.
Sabot
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 02:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Who ever said Ft. Knox was closing? If you read the first line in my second post, Ft. Knox gains more units than it loses. My first post points out that a combat unit from Germany will make their home at Knox too.Robin san;
If they are going to close down Fort Knox, who is going to guard the gold repository? I always thought that was one of the main reasons for Fort Knox to remain an active installation so the Army could guard the gold repository. Guess this means it is now empty...
Regards,
The Army doesn't guard the gold, the US Mint does. We just provide a quick reaction force if necessary.
jRatz
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 02:52 PM UTC
It would appear that BRAC is trying to force what should have happened long ago if it wasn't for all the parochial, self-serving branch issues & old GO's who just wouldn't let go of their fiefdoms.
We fight as a Combined Arms Team. Brigades have AR & IN Bn's. First thing we do is cross-attach companies into battalions, then teams into companies. We should have been changing schooling, TO&E, etc, long ago. IN & AR should be specialities (functional areas) under one branch.
Loggies same-same. CASCOM has been trying for years to bring all the loggies under one roof, failed miserably on its own, so Rumsfeld had to do it for them. There is no excuse for separate log branches any more; they can be specialities under one branch. We tried CLOAC but never got it so everyone went that route.
Duck hunters have been irrelevant for a decade & need to be brought back under a useful organization.
Santana said: Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Ratz said: Those who focus on history are doomed to repeat it.
John
We fight as a Combined Arms Team. Brigades have AR & IN Bn's. First thing we do is cross-attach companies into battalions, then teams into companies. We should have been changing schooling, TO&E, etc, long ago. IN & AR should be specialities (functional areas) under one branch.
Loggies same-same. CASCOM has been trying for years to bring all the loggies under one roof, failed miserably on its own, so Rumsfeld had to do it for them. There is no excuse for separate log branches any more; they can be specialities under one branch. We tried CLOAC but never got it so everyone went that route.
Duck hunters have been irrelevant for a decade & need to be brought back under a useful organization.
Santana said: Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Ratz said: Those who focus on history are doomed to repeat it.
John
Tankleader
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Posted: Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:32 PM UTC
Hello All,
It's too bad for Ft. Knox and the beautiful ranges there, with Ft. Benning I can see a lot of digital gunnery happening there, with the lack of ranges. Looking at some of the terms be used with the realignment like NET FIRES, the Army is already preparing itself for the Unit of Actions and the Future Combat System.
Just My 2 Cents
Andy
It's too bad for Ft. Knox and the beautiful ranges there, with Ft. Benning I can see a lot of digital gunnery happening there, with the lack of ranges. Looking at some of the terms be used with the realignment like NET FIRES, the Army is already preparing itself for the Unit of Actions and the Future Combat System.
Just My 2 Cents
Andy
panamadan
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Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 09:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Rob, Any changes in NCOES? Dan Quoted TextThis was already in the works. The officer corps training system is being broken up into three phases called Basic Officer Leadership Course or BOLC (pronounced BO-LICK).It might not be a bad idea-let's remember that we are here to support the grunts. Getting the officers and NCO's thinking about how the other branch works might be a good thing. Dan, a retired CDAT.
BOLC I is the traditional ROTC, West Point, OCS or National Guard state officer academy.
BOLC II is a branch immaterial phase that sends all new 2LTs to either Benning, Knox or Leonard Wood for an intensive field leadership course where they live in barracks and do small unit tactics. Benning has started the pilot program last year, we were supposed to start this fall.
BOLC III was going to be the branch specific traditional OBC that LTs go to now.
panamadan
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Posted: Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 03:57 AM UTC
Another thought-what will happen to the Patton Museum? Dan
crossracer
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Posted: Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 04:19 AM UTC
As one of the people who found out friday that i would be unemployeed in 3-7 years, it was a blow. I'm a professional airport firefighter, and i may have to change to find a new job. I met with the people who came to look at our base, and they all seemed to be fair, evenheaded people.
Probally the biggest negative we had against us was the fact a tornado went thru our C-130's late last year, wiping out one completly, and damaging 4 others. THe Air FOrce is prusuing the "mega base" idea. However there is somethign to be said about having all your eggs in one basket. THat tornado could have just as easily gone thru 15 c-130s as opposed to the 7 that where there. I can't say that it was partisan politics involved because some major bases under republican control got wacked also.
Well there is my two cents from someone involved. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months. Taking our planes would deprive Delaware of any AIr Guard planes at all. In one sense i'm luckly. I have two senators and one congressman fighting for just my job, as Delaware took no other real hits. PA next door took some hits and it will be very hard for them to concentrate on just one base like we have.
Finally, all this is expected to save 4.8 billion a year, which many have pointed out is not that great a savings. Not like what they saved during the last round of clousers.
Have to run. Bill
Probally the biggest negative we had against us was the fact a tornado went thru our C-130's late last year, wiping out one completly, and damaging 4 others. THe Air FOrce is prusuing the "mega base" idea. However there is somethign to be said about having all your eggs in one basket. THat tornado could have just as easily gone thru 15 c-130s as opposed to the 7 that where there. I can't say that it was partisan politics involved because some major bases under republican control got wacked also.
Well there is my two cents from someone involved. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months. Taking our planes would deprive Delaware of any AIr Guard planes at all. In one sense i'm luckly. I have two senators and one congressman fighting for just my job, as Delaware took no other real hits. PA next door took some hits and it will be very hard for them to concentrate on just one base like we have.
Finally, all this is expected to save 4.8 billion a year, which many have pointed out is not that great a savings. Not like what they saved during the last round of clousers.
Have to run. Bill
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 11:44 AM UTC
Just wondering Rob... any info on the Navy base closings, and ship and squadron axings?.....
jRatz
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Posted: Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Just wondering Rob... any info on the Navy base closings, and ship and squadron axings?.....
Dave:
Go to www.defenselink.mil/brac
You can get the main report (about 800 pages in 2 parts) & a shorter summary by state.
A lot of the ship/squadron stuff will be by inference only, they don't have that many specifics at that level.
John
SEDimmick
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Posted: Monday, May 16, 2005 - 02:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It would also seem to make more sense to put the Red Legs at Ft Bliss. A lot more multi use impact and manuever area available. One look at a map tells the story. I hope someone in the Army is going to troubleshoot the decisions and raise the BS flag if necesary. It does not make sense, but then since politics are involved it does not have to. "Tanks" for the scoop. Out here.
Mike, I agree totally. I was in a MRLS unit and we had to go to Ft Bliss/White Sands for training, due to the limitations at Sill with the rockets.
SEDimmick
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Posted: Monday, May 16, 2005 - 02:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Another thought-what will happen to the Patton Museum? Dan
Most likely stay there since it would cost too much to move it. But for future funding...thats a bit hazy
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, May 16, 2005 - 03:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Groton, CT sub base is on the list and has Conn legislaters in an uproar.Just wondering Rob... any info on the Navy base closings, and ship and squadron axings?.....
Quoted Text
But moving the ADA school to Sill frees up Ft. Bliss to receive the lion's share of combat units returning from Germany. I believe that the 1st Armor Division will relocate to Bliss and become another 4-brigade formation.It would also seem to make more sense to put the Red Legs at Ft Bliss. A lot more multi use impact and manuever area available.
MikeMummey
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Posted: Monday, May 16, 2005 - 04:20 AM UTC
Robin, copy all regarding 1st AD. Night life in El Paso will be good and rowdy again. It has not been the same since 3rd ACR left. However, as Scott points out the MLRS has its "style"' cramped at Ft Sill. I know that some Army MLRS still have to go to 29 Palms,CA to exercise their full capability. Maybe the MLRS units should go to Bliss and the Duck Hunters to Ft Sill. The 1st Ad would recieve MLRS support, right? I am still hoping that someone will trouble shoot all the decisions and give them a sanity check. Out here.
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