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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Tamiya Sherman (Early Production)
jazza
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 01:48 PM UTC
I've finally dug up my old tamiya Sherman model that i had constructed a couple of years ago and figured it might be good to further enhance it by perhaps weathering it a little as its simply too clean at the moment. At the time i was worried about weathering as i knew little about how to do it.

The only problem is the fact that its already fully constructed with the accessories in place so im not sure if i should weather it or not. Before i start on it, i figured it would be nice to get some advice from you guys on how you would do it if you were in my position.

Here are some shots of it practically brand new and shiny clean. By the way, as you can tell by this, im no expert in painting faces so i might try my hand at improving that as well...any tips here would really be useful too!

Side View


Front View


Supposedly a convoy


Close up of the front


Close up of the turret
rv1963
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 02:17 PM UTC
First let me say i like your Sherman you did a nice clean build, but there are a few simple improvements you can make the board holding up the spare wheels and fuel cans on the front is often made of wood so if you want you can repaint it wood color that will give you some contrast next you have several ejection pin marks on your spare tracks you can fill and sand them and repaint if you like, also you can drill out the machine gun barrel, i will leave the weathering advice to the experts here i am shore they can help. Once again nice build.
umustb
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 02:28 PM UTC
That's a fine looking Sherman tank you have there Jeremy. The figure painting looks great too.

Nice build overall... certain mistakes that I can spot are the join lines on the turret, the ejection pin marks on the spare tracks (like what rv1963 said), the antenna... it looks like it has broken off.

Regarding to weather the tank, you got to decide what type of a scenario are you planning to portray? The groundwork: Muddy winter? Muddy? etc... from there, then you weather accordingly. But I personally think since it's a tank you dug out after construction a couple of years ago.. you could just keep it as it is for "memory" sake.
jazza
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 03:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Nice build overall... certain mistakes that I can spot are the join lines on the turret, the ejection pin marks on the spare tracks (like what rv1963 said), the antenna... it looks like it has broken off.




Thanks for the kind words guys. Im still trying to figure out which are the ejection pins? Are they the ones at the end of the spare tracks, those thin narrow ones sticking at each side? Apologies in advance for my ignorance.

Not sure which join lines were inaccurate. Will check out the web for some references.

Also regarding the antenna, yes i did break it off as i originally had it at full length but in my infinite wisdom, i desperately wanted to fit this model into a display case which was low (from the base to the tip of the antenna) so i chopped it. Looking back, i should have just placed it on a base with no cover.

As for weathering, i had initially imagined a muddy look although JM's suggestion of keeping it as is for memory is starting to cross my mind however seeing as it looks like a convoy, it just currently looks like a convoy straight out from the assembly plant. :-)

Still undecided to be honest.
PZKFWIII
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 03:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not sure which join lines were inaccurate. Will check out the web for some references.



I didn't see any join lines on the turret.


Quoted Text

Thanks for the kind words guys. Im still trying to figure out which are the ejection pins?



The circles on the track pads that are on the front sloped armor. If they are not too deep (which they look like they aren't) I would fill them with white out (the pen correction fluid...the old stuff that smells like paint) and sand off any excess.

The antenna needs to be replaced either with streched sprue, or brass or plastic wire.

But like the others said, it is a super clean build. (mine don't ever look like that)

Rich

jazza
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 03:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text


The circles on the track pads that are on the front sloped armor. If they are not too deep (which they look like they aren't) I would fill them with white out (the pen correction fluid...the old stuff that smells like paint) and sand off any excess.

The antenna needs to be replaced either with streched sprue, or brass or plastic wire.




Ah yes i finally see what you mean now. I actually do have some tamiya putty which i can use as well but good idea on the correction pen. Thinking about it, those correction pens do make cheap and good fillers.

Thanks also for the idea on using brass as that would solve my issue of being able to place it back in the display case and stretch it back up when opened....or is this opening up another can of worms?
rv1963
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 04:34 PM UTC
Jeremy i have tryed stretched spru in the past didn't work well for me i use music wire or thin brass wire any good hobby store should have that. The only seam line i can clearly see is on the top of the main gun barrel but if you fix that you will have to repaint the barrel, as i said you did a good job your tank better than my early ones. I just looked in your gallery at your Abrams tank nicely done.
jazza
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 04:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Jeremy i have tryed stretched spru in the past didn't work well for me i use music wire or thin brass wire any good hobby store should have that. The only seam line i can clearly see is on the top of the main gun barrel but if you fix that you will have to repaint the barrel, as i said you did a good job your tank better than my early ones. I just looked in your gallery at your Abrams tank nicely done.



Wow you guys do have sharp eyes but i guess that comes with experience. Would you sand it down to cover the seam lines or use putty?

Thanks for the kind words once again.
rv1963
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 05:02 PM UTC
I would sand it first so the putty will stick apply some putty and than sand again till its smooth. Good luck with all the extra work we have given you :-)
jazza
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 06:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I would sand it first so the putty will stick apply some putty and than sand again till its smooth. Good luck with all the extra work we have given you :-)



Hey its all good! Im learning lots of good tips in here. Keep it coming!

Still undecided if weathering it is a good idea or not though.
umustb
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 06:43 PM UTC
Hi Jeremy... regarding the seam line above the gun barrel, I would apply putty first and then file them smooth.. There are some great advice here... like the correction fluid idea.. haven't thought of using that before, worth a try in future.

As for the weathering, go subtle. Maybe just dirty the tank. Enamels + Spirit (Turpentine) and weather as you please (those welding lines esp.)..

Regarding the figure painting... get some good brushes, paints and you're off.. do check out topics on figure paintings here in Armorama.. they're helpful.

some help on figure painting Happy Modelling.!
Davester444
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 08:06 PM UTC
I find a toothpick is good for painting the eyes and mouth. You can get just about enough paint on, and I find it easier to get in the right place. But that's just my personal preference. Different methods work best for different people.
jazza
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2005 - 09:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text


some help on figure painting Happy Modelling.!



That is one awesome tutorial on painting figures i must say. Im printing that one and placing it into my model bible.
shonen_red
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 01:04 AM UTC
You have a pretty neat build there sir! I like it. All you need to do now is to work on the figures and a diorama is just a few steps away
ericadeane
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 02:55 AM UTC
You've already gotten some great advice. May I suggest the following book?

Building Realistic Tanks and Artillery by Kalmbach Publishing. It's a good basic primer on many aspects of building. It'll teach you to have an eye for things such as knock-out ejection marks, seams to be filled, etc.

For future Sherman builds, here's a good site for you:
http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/articles.html

One thing on your Sherman that you might want to correct is the .50cal MG. It's firing handles are glued on backwards. They should project towards the rear. FYI.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 04:58 AM UTC
Guys have suggested filling the ejection pin dimples on the tracks, but if it is possible to remove the track from the ull without too much trouble, I would do so as Sherman track was almost always attached by welding the teeth to the hull, thuse the outside of the pads would be visible and no ejection pin marks.

Also, you need to add straps or ropes to your stowage to show why it wouldn't just fly off the tank upon hitting the first bump. Tanks really do ride rather rough and anything not welded or tied down, is soon spread all over the countryside.

As for weathering, for your fist attempt, keep it simple and use just a few techniques.

1) Spray the whole tank with Future floor polish (an acrylic gloss coat). I don't know what the equivalent is in NZ.

2) Use dark wash of black or burnt sienna artists oil colour thinned a LOT. Let is get into the crevasses & corners and it will give a greater sense of depth to the finish.

3) Airbrush the lower portion of the hull and running gear (not the tracks) with Tamiya Buff as this make a good generic dusty dirt colour and pretty much all AFVs in service are covered in a thick layer of dust. Don't worry that you can't see the green through it, that's just fine. For this vehicle, I'd stick to just a little bit of dust paint coming up on the sides of the sponsons, but prety much all of the running gear and the hull sides should be dust.

4) Dull coat (matt varnish) the entire tank to seal the washes and to make the colour evenly flat again.

5) Get some artist chalk pastels in colours that mimic or can be mixed to make the colours you want (slightly lighter than the dust you sprayed. Grind them fine and then use an old paintbrush to apply them to the whole vehicle, paying special attention to the lower areas and lessening the effect on the top surfaces.

This isn't a complete weathering system, but it wil get you going and teach you a few techniques along the way. I would heavily suggest that you try everything on an old model first before trying on this Sherman.

Also, if you use the pastel chalk method, you can't touch the tank again after, so make sure the tracks are in place before dusting with chalk.

HTH

Paul
INDIA11A
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 05:01 AM UTC
NIce build!! It will be your call but I think it is well worth weathering it up. Most pics I have seen of these vehicles I operation have the skirts pulled off. Just put some plasticard mounting strips along the hull bottom. Do up your ejector pin marks and check for molding/glue seams. touchup the paint as required, wash dry brush and weather (mud/dust). A hint for your stogage is to use different shades of OD/ green to highlight. Just a point of interest, the >50 cal pic from ericdeane is of a quick -change barrel version (not available in WWII). Difference is the "handle" at the front of the barrel jacket. The WWII version had the "coat hanger" handle. Whatever you do have fun! You are off to a good start.
ShermiesRule
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 05:16 AM UTC
Don't sweat that your first build was not entirely accurate. That's a nice simple good looking build that will certainly be a solid starting point for learning Shermans. Seems no one can ever get them 100% right no matter how many you build so just keep building another one adding another little fix. You will get closer and closer with each build.
jazza
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 12:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

One thing on your Sherman that you might want to correct is the .50cal MG. It's firing handles are glued on backwards. They should project towards the rear.



Crap! I didnt notice that before! Thanks for pointing that out....the closer i look at it, the more mistakes i find as well. :-) They are definitely glued on the wrong way and i suspect trying to pull it apart is going to cause more harm than good. Im tempted to make another one now.


Quoted Text

Don't sweat that your first build was not entirely accurate. That's a nice simple good looking build that will certainly be a solid starting point for learning Shermans. Seems no one can ever get them 100% right no matter how many you build so just keep building another one adding another little fix. You will get closer and closer with each build.



I might just do that actually. Trying to further touch up the tank apart from weathering may end up causing more damage. Would certainly have to do more research before i build my next one.


Quoted Text

1) Spray the whole tank with Future floor polish (an acrylic gloss coat). I don't know what the equivalent is in NZ.



On this note, i normally apply my gloss coats using a brush. I havent yet used my airbrush for this as im real worried on the cleaning process. What would you use to clean away gloss? Im currently using the Humbrol Satin Coat as the varnish / gloss.


Quoted Text

Also, if you use the pastel chalk method, you can't touch the tank again after, so make sure the tracks are in place before dusting with chalk.



I've heard about this before when using pastel chalks. I trialled it for awhile but ended up using pigment powder and mixing it with some thinner and a bit glue. That way the dirt stick. I ended up doing that for my M1A2.


Quoted Text

3) Airbrush the lower portion of the hull and running gear (not the tracks) with Tamiya Buff as this make a good generic dusty dirt colour and pretty much all AFVs in service are covered in a thick layer of dust. Don't worry that you can't see the green through it, that's just fine. For this vehicle, I'd stick to just a little bit of dust paint coming up on the sides of the sponsons, but prety much all of the running gear and the hull sides should be dust.



This is good stuff! Thanks!

Im thinking i will probably gloss the whole sherman anyway as if it isnt obvious, the decals werent sealed in as i was under the impression back then that the decals would stick there forever. The only big question mark i have is placing the gloss on. The tank accessories were glued on back in 2003 so im really concern about 1 thing:

If i use an airbrush to spray the gloss over the tank to seal the paint and decals in, can you guys suggest what i need to use to thoroughly clean any reminents on the airbrush?

umustb
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 01:21 AM UTC
Laquer Thinner should do the job of cleaning out the airbrush.


Quoted Text

Guys have suggested filling the ejection pin dimples on the tracks, but if it is possible to remove the track from the ull without too much trouble, I would do so as Sherman track was almost always attached by welding the teeth to the hull, thuse the outside of the pads would be visible and no ejection pin marks.



Hi Paul (tankmodeler), do you have pictures or websites that show the teeth of the tracks being welded to the hull? Would love to see them (reference pics for future builds)...
Prato
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 02:16 AM UTC
Hi Jeremy,
In my opinion it looks like a very good example of a sherman! Of course there are all the faults the others pointed, but I believe you will overcome them! Good luck on your weathering!
Cheers and happy modelling!
Prato
BigJon
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 02:25 AM UTC
nice and clean for a change!!

other than the small details that you notice when ur more "into" modelling I think that will come out great when ur done

good luck with it
tankmodeler
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 03:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I've heard about this before when using pastel chalks. I trialled it for awhile but ended up using pigment powder and mixing it with some thinner and a bit glue. That way the dirt stick. I ended up doing that for my M1A2.


That's fine, then. If you have any method that works for you, then use that instead. There are a bunch of ways to do any of these techniques, so pick one that you like best.


Quoted Text

Im thinking i will probably gloss the whole sherman anyway as if it isnt obvious, the decals werent sealed in as i was under the impression back then that the decals would stick there forever.



While you can gloss over the decals, it appears that you are getting what is known as silvering under them now. A gloss coat will _not_ clear this up. Depending upon how much work you are wiling to do, you could remove the decals (use tape to pull them off and/or gentle scraping with an Exacto knife) gloss coat everything and then apply new decals. They will not silver after that.


Quoted Text

can you guys suggest what i need to use to thoroughly clean any reminents on the airbrush?



I suppose I have to ask what you are using to clean your airbrush now and why you think a clear gloss will cause any special problems? 'Cause it won't.

I use both a single action Paasche H and a double action Paashe VL. For both, my normal cleaning routine is to run some of the thinner used for the particular paint through the brush (for Future, that would be water), and then to break down the brush and clean all the bits in laquer thinner. I don't care what paint you are using, dipping the metal bits in laquer thinner will clean them up perfectly. No problems. In my humble opinion, you just have to break down the brush each time you finish painting. If there are any rubber O-rings, remove them before dipping that part in laquer thinner.

Occasionally I will just run some thinner through if I am switching between similar colours or going from a lighter colour to a darker colour during the same session. But at the end of the session, no matter what I have been spraying, I break down the brush & clean everything in laquer thinner. On the H it's really easy. On the VL, less so and that's probably why I use it less. Still, I clean anything the paint has come in contact with and I never have a problem with one colour showing up in a different paint job or of any parts sticking or jamming.

Paul
jazza
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I suppose I have to ask what you are using to clean your airbrush now and why you think a clear gloss will cause any special problems? 'Cause it won't.

Paul



Seeing as im currently only using acrylic paints, they wash off my airbrush with water no problems. I havent yet used my airbrush with the humbrol satin gloss as i tried it out on a paint brush and tried washing it off with water and it ended up sticking to the tips of paint brush even more despite actively rinsing it off. Tried soaking it overnight as well but the gloss just dried up on the brush so its stiff as a nail at the moment. Acrylic thinner didnt really clean it off either.

I will try to look out for lacquer thinner to see if it works. Is lacquer thinner similar to enamel thinner?
tankmodeler
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Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 05:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Seeing as im currently only using acrylic paints,



Ah ha! I see your problem...


Quoted Text

they wash off my airbrush with water no problems.



Most acrylics (other than Testor's acryl) will clean up even better with isopropyl alchohol (IPA){no, not india pale ale!}, which is also what you should use to thin these paints. Get the 95% or better stuff from the drug store (chemists) for abuot $1 per litre.


Quoted Text

I havent yet used my airbrush with the humbrol satin gloss as i tried it out on a paint brush and tried washing it off with water and it ended up sticking to the tips of paint brush even more despite actively rinsing it off. Tried soaking it overnight as well but the gloss just dried up on the brush so its stiff as a nail at the moment. Acrylic thinner didnt really clean it off either.



Regular Humbrol enamel paints are a completely different chemistry than the acrylic paints. Solvent for one paint doesn't do anything for the other paint. Enamels will thin with mineral spirits, "white spirit", Varsol and turpentine. They can be dissolved with laquer thinner for cleaning, but you generally shouldn't thin them with laquer thinner until you know how to paint a bit better (I'm assuming you are relatively new to this area of the hobby).

Go to the hardware store & buy a litre of laquer thinner (about $3) and decant some of it into a small glass bottle with a really good seal. Take your stiff brush and sit it in the laquer thinner for a while (shouldn't take too long, maybe an hour) and then start to work the old paint out of it. It should clean up quite nicely with a bit of effort.


Quoted Text

I will try to look out for lacquer thinner to see if it works.



Don't you worry, it will definitely work. Just be careful you don't breathe in the fumes for too long, use in a well ventilated area!


Quoted Text

Is lacquer thinner similar to enamel thinner?


No, nothing like it. most enamel thinners (like those I mentioned above) are relatively gentle compared to how agressive laquer thinner is. Varsol and the like generally won't bother styrene plastic whereas laquer thinner will start to soften it after prolonged exposure.

HTH

Paul
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