_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
Hosted by Darren Baker
US Humvee replacement.
HeavyArty
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 06:23 AM UTC
Sorry, disagree with you Peter.

Somalia had nothing to do with HMMWVs that an Armored Car would have helped out in. Soldier's die in combat. Sorry to say it, but 18 is/was a small number. The raid should have been planned and executed better and had armored support.

Space shuttle has nothing to do with it either. 3 accidents in a over 40 year program really isn't that bad when you put it into perspective either. Not going any further there.

The soldier in Iraq who posed the questions to Rumsfeld was told to ask those by a reporter who had an agenda. The soldier later stated he didn't even know about armore/unarmored HMMWVs. He didn't use them.

Also, the others who said the LAV-25, M1117, M1114, etc. are armored cars are correct too. They may not be designed for convoy escort, but they work. I think the best convoy escorts are uparmored 5-ton's myself.

Unfortunately, we are at war. People are giong to die. That is the way it is, no mater what type of equipment you have. The enemy will always find a way to defaet them. These are the risks some of us accept in order to keep all of us free.
sgtsauer
#065
Visit this Community
Missouri, United States
Joined: March 30, 2002
KitMaker: 2,605 posts
Armorama: 1,814 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 06:26 AM UTC
I totally agree Gino. Very well said!!
Jaster
Visit this Community
Michigan, United States
Joined: January 15, 2002
KitMaker: 579 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 06:47 AM UTC
Pete / All,

I agree that the BIG $s always seem to go to the new glamourous weapons. And yes, minds change sloooowly, too slow too often. I think that we have oriented our forces for 60+ years for the next "world war". We have been and still are one of the few nations that can afford to equip ourselves for such a conflagration. We need to keep all aspects of our military modern and capable- a static approach is wrong, but abandoning systems is wrong too. AS Pete said- that A10 is a case in point.

Changing the bureaucratic inertia of an institution like the US military...I can't even imagine how hard it will be- hell we can't get the 15 person office I work in, to commit to upgrading computers, implementing a few office standards, etc.

That said I think the US military is changing- The Stryker, while NOT an armored car is not another tank either. It is an acknowledgement that something different is needed. Is it the right thing for Iraq?? I'd guess the jury is out on that one still.

A few other points & questions...

We are examing a very specific threat here. The various uparmored Hummers have been a big improvement. The were/are a reactive approach. It is always better to be proactive, but well, we are all humans and prone to errors. Should we have anticipated this threat better? Yes. Did we? No. Still we have reacted, equipment and tactics are be created, designed, implemented to solve the problem.

As has been said, nothing is going to withstand all threats. The blast that flung the AAV would have crippled anything. The point being, how much protection is the right amount?

Some of the vehicles mentioned above, especially the Russian vehicles- aren't a lot of them susceptible to .50 cal. rounds? It seems that this implies a low level of armor protection- of course I could have my facts outta whack, I'm going from memory (scary).

Isn't there an armored car in use by the US currently?? USAF MPs maybe?? Don't know much about it...

If we designed, built and deployed a true armored car, specifically designed for the Convoy duty, wouldn't the terrorists just switch targets? We can't build everything to withstand IEDs.

Again, going from memeory it seems like South Africa has a vehicle with a V-shaped almost boat-like hull, specifically designed to withstand mines- maybe something like this would be a solution.

And finally (sorry to ramble), as a positive aspect of this discussion- maybe a "contest" to spec out/design a Armored Convoy Escort Vehicle, ACEV, there it even has an acronym! Maybe it could be a "Campaign" of paper- sketches, designs, specs, etc? just a random thought on a Saturday afternoon.

Jim
Trisaw
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 07:06 AM UTC
Agreed, Gino. You're points are valid and true. But I also want to show, "If nothing changes...nothing changes."

What does it take for an Army to change? Somalia? Kosovo? OEF? OIF? IEDs? Is this reactive or proactive? What have we learned and where are the changes? An Army is not status quo, and I think this is why the post of a Humvee replacement surprised some people since the Humvee has been status quo for 20 so years.

A Humvee replacement may not be needed, but it IS change.

The space shuttle example is a true story of set Govt. culture and how sometimes change is hard. Yes, that soldier was coached by reporters, but he made a difference in that M1117 and body armor orders increased as well as M1114 production soon afterwards. We will never know when and how production will increase if it was NOT for that soldier. Sometimes it takes 60 Minutes, TIME, or someone else to blow the whistle.

Jim, your points are also valid. One problem is the "Made in America" political slant. On the other DG, I try to open minds to the possibility that the U.S. Army may not have the best equipment in the world in certain areas. But as you know, this is extremely hard for some people to believe. Yes, we're using South African vehicles in Iraq, and yes, they're not "Made in the U.S." Still, that causes problems for some people nonetheless.

"People say change is good. But what they really meant to say is that something that you didn't want or plan to happen, happened." ---"Shopgirl/Meg Ryan" in "You've Got Mail."

I find the above quote very true for the Army's truck fleet.

This is turning too political so I bow out.
Jaster
Visit this Community
Michigan, United States
Joined: January 15, 2002
KitMaker: 579 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 07:24 AM UTC
Pete,

Don't bow out!

Both sides of this discussion have merit... at least I think they do. Change ALWAYS comes slow. My example of our office, and I am sure everyone's work experience bears this out. I sit 15 feet from the Pres of our Company...I spend a LOT of time with him...I sit 10' from the CFO, we are good friends- but oh my God- try and change the course of things- it is easier often to sit tight and go with the flow. Obvious things require justification, cost analysis and on and on and on. Extrapolate this to a 1 million+ person organization with HUGE political issues attached. I am often amazed we aren't still using horses!

It is the guys like Gino, Brent and others have a viewpoint from the center of the issue, Pete, myself and others see it from out here...all opinions are just that- someones thoughts. I have read this thread and seen both sides with valid points- is it getting a bit pointed- ya, so, we can all just suck it up and move on. Keep the thoughts moving. There is emotion (always dangerous on a discussion board) but no anger I have seen.

Pete's Space Shuttle analogy is valid (IMHO) to demonstrate that the need to change is often overlooked. Should we have been working more on a Gen 2 Shuttle?? Maybe building an improved Gen 1? I think so. But Gino's (I think it was Gino) point of the incredibly low accident rate when you consider the mission is equally valid- they just address 2 differing points.

OK...pushing the soapbox under the table and stepping down.

I think this bunch can withstand a bit of emotion and I for one am enjoying the debate. And I am grinding on ideas and thoughts for the series of Urban Combat Vehicles for the paper campaign...

Jim
ShermiesRule
Visit this Community
Michigan, United States
Joined: December 11, 2003
KitMaker: 5,409 posts
Armorama: 3,777 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 07:54 AM UTC
It sounds as if all of you are simply proposing an new vehicle in addition to the humvee rather than a replacement.

The humvee was not intended for a combat role so it can go back to transport and communitcations or whatever. The new vehicle will be for urban combat and escort duty

Jaster
Visit this Community
Michigan, United States
Joined: January 15, 2002
KitMaker: 579 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 08:15 AM UTC
Is it me, or is there a disproportionate bunch of Michiganders in this discussion.

Good point on the Humvee- It is now doing a job it was never really intended for. So a new vehicle seems to be what we are talking about. Maybe time for revolutionary vs. evolutionary thinking??

Any interest in a "paper campaign"?? Something with sketches, specs, etc. Maybe as an end result the entrants that are interested could scrathbuild their vehicles.

Anyhow- I love this type of debate.

Jim
jazza
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 2,709 posts
Armorama: 1,818 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 02:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It sounds as if all of you are simply proposing an new vehicle in addition to the humvee rather than a replacement.



I wouldnt be surprise if the US Military do actually end up developing a new vehicle and incorporate the strengths of the humvee. You have to give it some credit that the humvee had its good attributes. If you starts from scratch, you end up re-inventing the wheel which would open up its own can of worms.

To put things into perspective, check out these photos of the Singapore Army. The first photos shows the current transport jeeps that are used today. Just on appearance and chasis built, its obvious which vehicle you would rather be in when compared to the hummer.

Click here
sgtsauer
#065
Visit this Community
Missouri, United States
Joined: March 30, 2002
KitMaker: 2,605 posts
Armorama: 1,814 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 04:08 PM UTC
I think it has been a great discussion. All of the different opinions I think are great. I love to hear other poeples opinions and perspectives. Overall, I think everyone has conducted themselves well and it has been a very thought provoking discussion.

Thanks to everyone involved.
2CAVTrooper
Visit this Community
Alabama, United States
Joined: October 21, 2005
KitMaker: 310 posts
Armorama: 302 posts
Posted: Friday, October 28, 2005 - 05:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The problem with the U.S. vehicles often comes from politics and lack of variants. For example, the Humvee has been exported to make the Otokar Cobra (Turkey) which is fully armored nose-to-tail and has a fully-enclosed turret. Swiss MOWAG also took the Humvee chassis and made the Eagle, also more armored and with a fully-enclosed turret than the M1114, respectively. Both Eagle and Cobra are designed and built from the chassis up and are in effect better than the M1114. The same goes for the F-16 with Block 60s and above being sold to foreign air forces, which of course means that the USAF doesn't have the best F-16s for its pilots.

Instead of making an armored Humvee from chassis up on the assembly line, the U.S. instead takes built Humvees, ships them to another state, guts the interior, and uparmors them that way to make the M1114, which doesn't make as much sense as factory-fresh armored Humvees.

Politics also comes to play. The U.S. Army acts as a ladder with M1s and M2s on the top of the food chain and trucks, trailers, and Humvees at the bottom. Funds always comes top-down. Every military branch has this issue---superstars vs. grunts and the stars get all the money, attention, and glamour. The only wheeled superstar in the U.S. Army is the Stryker. The rest are buried under armored tracks.

Then comes OIF and OEF and guess who are the grunts turned superstars? The trucks, trailers, and Humvees, long ignored as "adequate enough." Well, they're not adequate since they're not true combat vehicles or even armored cars.

I don't want to sound anti-American, but a lot of the problems Humvees, trucks, and trailers face today is how politics and the Govt. operate. We all heard the saying, "If it's not broken, DON'T FIX IT!" A lot of people follow this motto. A classic example is NASA's space shuttle. It wasn't broken, so nothing was fixed until something broke and everything ground to a halt. Now foam broke off from the fuel tank (again) and NASA has to fix it when perhaps the solution is to find a replacement long ago.

One issue I also dislike about these U.S. Army "replacement ideas" is the 1:1 basis such as the Humvee replaces the M151 and "Humvee replacement" replaces Humvee. There is no other alternative, and when it comes to land warfare, the emerging and different threats are more than say air combat. While I understand a 1 for 1 replacement is to save cost and maintenance, I do believe that at times, there should be more variants, more tools in the toolbox, more vehicles to choose from such as the British have with their variety of armored cars (see Jane's tank guide or the Russians have with their variety of BTR turrets). For example, if you want a SUV, wouldn't it stink to have just one to chose from one manufacturer that makes it? (And what happens if that manufacturer goes on strike or can't meet production orders?). The space shuttle is that way (the only U.S. ticket to get people into space) and now the U.S. Govt. is rediscovering the use of rockets. Corporate sector and private security companies are another story...



The M1114 I was on over in bosnia had a fully armored crew compartment that was just as effective as the MOWAG eagles'.

I've seen what an AT mine can do to a M1114 up at Camp McGovern, and the crew wasn't even scratched.

And as far as the "adequate enough" humvees, the unarmored ones used by 2ACR did their job quite well.

The Humvee replaced numerous vehicles not just the M151
matt
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: February 28, 2002
KitMaker: 5,957 posts
Armorama: 2,956 posts
Posted: Friday, October 28, 2005 - 05:58 AM UTC
I believe it replaced Most of the vehicles in the 1/4 to
1-1/4 or 1-1/2 Ton classes....... I may be wrong on the upper end.....
nzgunnie
Visit this Community
Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: October 15, 2004
KitMaker: 371 posts
Armorama: 174 posts
Posted: Friday, October 28, 2005 - 07:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Mind you the hummer is still one of the better light infantry transport vehicles when you compare it with other countries. You cant compare the hummer to tanks for obvious reasons and as Gino mentioned, nothing is indestructable. I would be interested to see what replaces the hummer too.

If you compare the light transport vehicles to the ones in New Zealand's (Unimog) and Singapore's jeep, the hummer still prevails in terms of its infrastructure any day.



Jeremy, the UNIMOG and the Humvee are different classes of vehicle mate, the mog is a truck, our version of the Humvee is now the Pinzgauer, although quite a few landrovers are still in service. We looked at the Humvee to replace the rover, but decided on the all singing all dancing 6x6 Pinz instead.
hellbent11
Visit this Community
Kansas, United States
Joined: August 17, 2005
KitMaker: 725 posts
Armorama: 340 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 06:48 PM UTC
The U.S. Marines use a Mercedes Benz to supplement the Hummer especially for operations where the vehicle will be airlifted. I know that a lot of Marines thought it to be much more manuverable and reliable but lacking armor protection. If they could increase the armor on the Mercedez I think that the Marines would be ready to accept it as a standard vehicle for a lot of combat duties.
Trisaw
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Monday, November 14, 2005 - 04:48 AM UTC
The Marines were thinking of buying the Shadow RST-V, but from what I read on another board, the cost per vehicle is increasing, making the Marines think, "Maybe not."

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/shadow/
Jaster
Visit this Community
Michigan, United States
Joined: January 15, 2002
KitMaker: 579 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, November 14, 2005 - 01:40 PM UTC
Looks like a streamlined Hummer...revo-evolutionary even (made up the word since it is not revolutionary, but is a bit more than a mere evolutionary change). The hybrid powerplant is the wave of the future, military and civilian.

The description is kind of scant re: armor protection...small arms and mines? I am still waiting for an dedicated URBAN WARRIOR type vehicle. Maybe one day!

Jim
Trisaw
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Monday, November 14, 2005 - 06:12 PM UTC
Yes, when it comes to armor protection, many authors use the vague phrase, "Protection against shrapnel and small arms." Well, "small arms" comes in 9mm to 7.62mm and shrapnel comes from grenades to typical 155mm shells, so which level is it? That's just another way of saying, "I don't know."

Or better yet, I "like" how some authors sometimes use, "ARMOR: CLASSIFIED" as another means of "I don't know." What's really funny is that some authors STILL use "Classified" for 1980s vehicles when in fact the armor specs (example: "protection up to 7.62mm AP") can be found on the web or some other books!

 _GOTOTOP