Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 12:39 AM UTC
" My personal feeling is that there is a certain amount of maintenance & upkeep that goes to the wayside during the times of conflict and is caught up on during the lulls in battle. I can remember dropping the ramp on my scout M113 at Ft Bliss (DJ, remember that one before the trip to Canada??) pulling everything out anc cleaning it top to bottom. Ya'll can only live in the dirt & grime so long... Now, which of you out there builds and weathers their models to represent real life and who is part of that "artsy-fartsy," paint chipping, pre/post shading crowd?? "
John--you folks did well by me at Fort Bliss during the ARTEP. It was the only time Economy employed the Troop to actually find a weak spot in the 4/15 defense. We roared through those guys and showed them what am M-1 Battalion can do! That was great.
DJ
PS--Lord, do I miss it!
DJ Judge
COL (R), USA
"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
Washington, United States
Joined: October 02, 2002
KitMaker: 1,546 posts
Armorama: 1,081 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 12:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"Now, which of you out there builds and weathers their models to represent real life and who is part of that "artsy-fartsy," paint chipping, pre/post shading crowd?? "
Personally I have always gone for a "lived in" look. I always add scratches, dirt, a little rust, hand prints, finger prints, torn seat covers, 100 mile an hour tape where appropriate, peeling paint, and it never hurts to put extremely small dots of black, brown, and rust color all over the tank, inside and out.
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,208 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 02:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
John--you folks did well by me at Fort Bliss during the ARTEP. It was the only time Economy employed the Troop to actually find a weak spot in the 4/15 defense. We roared through those guys and showed them what am M-1 Battalion can do! That was great
DJ,
That was a fun ride as I worked the night shift, on foot, on that particular night before... Personally, my platoon accounded for the combat trains, aid stations and the UMCP.
Another great ride for TF 2-10 was the attack across the Battle River at Ft Wainright. The Canadians got another lesson in M1 tactics that day... I became a believer in the M1 decoys as the troop, under the Idiot, suckered most of their reserves to the south as the Buffalo Soldiers rumbled up north. I can't say that I enjoyed maneuvering through the Badlands though... Those were the days.
John
John Charvat
"Hey baby, I only ride 'em, I don't know what makes them work" Oddball
Join AMPS: https://www.amps-armor.org/SiteMain/Main.aspx
New York, United States
Joined: June 12, 2002
KitMaker: 168 posts
Armorama: 141 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 03:27 PM UTC
Every Tuesday was motor pool day. You checked it, and washed it if it was dirty or not. But when we were out in the field that puppy stayed as dirty as we were.
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."General George S. Patton-June 1944
Kentucky, United States
Joined: November 09, 2002
KitMaker: 272 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Friday, December 06, 2002 - 12:37 PM UTC
Mondays are MP days, usually now, but still one of those days you check your track's cleanliness.
Sabot-it's fun watching vehicles being recovered, until it's yours. *chuckle* The M88A2 is a very sweet piece of equipment both it, and it's older brother have hauled me out of predicaments before, How are you likeing the FMTV wrecker?
And, as a poke back at part of the orignal post, there was a time when I ran into one of the dirtiest M1's, with most of walking areas clearly washed off. Interesting contrast. But, one of the biggest things was that both of the right side #3 roadwheels had somehow managed to be lost, and the hub was riding on the track, rolling right along.
Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 25, 2002
KitMaker: 501 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, December 06, 2002 - 03:10 PM UTC
Well if you're doing canadian vehicles we only wash the vehicles after an ex is done, be 5 days or 30 days. Can't have a dirty vehicle being low beded from the training area!
We get a lot of mud or dust if your in Suffield, remember Brits use Suffield as well. Challenger 2, FV 432, Warriors etc. I even saw a Warrior painted fire engine red! It was a range vehicle.
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 02:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sabot-it's fun watching vehicles being recovered, until it's yours. *chuckle* The M88A2 is a very sweet piece of equipment both it, and it's older brother have hauled me out of predicaments before, How are you likeing the FMTV wrecker?
I've been pulled out of some interesting areas on my tank. My guys don't like the new FMTV wrecker. You control the winches from the side and can't see both of the cables paying in. We've already kinked the farside cable during NET training. Stevens International paid for a new cable. It does have the benefit of being new though.
Mississippi, United States
Joined: May 11, 2002
KitMaker: 63 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 07:59 AM UTC
Hey All,
I didn't see anyone mention this. As far as the vehicle commanders liking to keep their vehicles clean, I am one of them. The less dirt and stuff in and on the tank makes it easier to keep the pony running. Not only because you can find leaks and stuff better but dirt rubbing between metal and metal breaks the stuff down. I cannot stand for my ride to be "down" for any reason and now days I think I am one of the few who still find it embarrasing to have a vehicle on the deadline report. Well time for me to get off my soap box before someone throws me off.
Stephen Magee
Barbarian Mike Golf
"If you can dismount your main weapon system without direct support then you ain't nothin but a taxi."
Kentucky, United States
Joined: November 09, 2002
KitMaker: 272 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 08:02 AM UTC
Pretty tank=clean tank=probably running tank=proud crew who at least care how it looks.
Virginia, United States
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 666 posts
Armorama: 598 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 08:57 AM UTC
I spent alot of time on the washrack when I was a tanker. Also we usually painted our tanks about every six months. Time in the field takes its toll on the paint and everything else. They had to be clean so you could pull maintance on them. I took pride in the way my tank looked. If you took care of them they would take care of you.
Steel on Target !
Bco 3/68th Armor
Aco 2/68th Armor
NCOA/DSS
HHC 2/13th Armor USA Armor Training Center
19K3HB8
Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
Joined: May 22, 2002
KitMaker: 4,082 posts
Armorama: 1,993 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 09:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I spent alot of time on the washrack when I was a tanker. Also we usually painted our tanks about every six months. Time in the field takes its toll on the paint and everything else. They had to be clean so you could pull maintance on them. I took pride in the way my tank looked. If you took care of them they would take care of you.
You talk just like a Dutch Tanker Barron
Rob stated
Quoted Text
"Modern tanks get just as muddy as WW2 tanks did, except that they are not in war games for as long as WW2 tanks were in combat."
I don't wan't to argue this statement (since I also know/think it's true), but does anybody know what the average age of active tanks was during WWII (or their life expectency when being released from the factory). I'm just curious about this.
Sorry if it's OT.
Danny
All the way is far enough
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,208 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 11:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey All,
I didn't see anyone mention this. As far as the vehicle commanders liking to keep their vehicles clean, I am one of them. The less dirt and stuff in and on the tank makes it easier to keep the pony running. Not only because you can find leaks and stuff better but dirt rubbing between metal and metal breaks the stuff down. I cannot stand for my ride to be "down" for any reason and now days I think I am one of the few who still find it embarrasing to have a vehicle on the deadline report. Well time for me to get off my soap box before someone throws me off.
SabotShooter & Sarge18
When I was a Company Commander in Erlangen, we had a Brigade Commander that had this thing called the "wow test." Basically the story came from when he was a 2LT in Viet Nam with 11ACR when they had Sheridans. Most of his could not fire the main gun as the vehicles were hard to maintain (electrical fire control & lots of moisture) or poorly maintained. Well, on his second or third contact one of his vehicles, who was not with the platoon before in Contact 1 or 2, started shooting up the jungle with 152mm rounds. Afterwards, he looked att he vehicle, inside the turret (like an operating room), at the engine (looked like it came off of the cover of a car magazine), and all he could say was Wow... Needless to say, take care of the ride & it will take care of you.
Sabotshooter, you remember the post-AOM inspections in Dragonland...
Dragon 3/5 Ancient, out
John Charvat
"Hey baby, I only ride 'em, I don't know what makes them work" Oddball
Join AMPS: https://www.amps-armor.org/SiteMain/Main.aspx
European Union
Joined: February 15, 2002
KitMaker: 2,289 posts
Armorama: 1,231 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 04:39 AM UTC
I never was a tanker, but I can imagine you'd like to KEEP some dirt on the tank in real conflict situations. No matter what colour your tank is painted, it never reflects the colour of the terrain around you as... the chunks of terrain that stick to your hull ?
Or doesnt' that play any role in the decision to clean/not clean the vehicle ?
Who the hell is General Failure, and why was he reading my hard disk ?
Where's my funky Iraqi general rank that was here on my profile a few years ago? Did they strip my rank, after all I've done for this forum ? Robbery!!
Mississippi, United States
Joined: May 11, 2002
KitMaker: 63 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 08:16 AM UTC
General,
You almost have a good point. Unfortunately when the mud and stuff dry, it makes the tank stand out even more than if the tank were clean. If you are going to use foliage to camo a tank then it needs to be replaced about everyday because it will start to dry out and stuff. As far as an M1 series of tank goes though some areas you just cant camo because it will impede the operation of a tank.
Stephen Magee
Barbarian Mike Golf
"If you can dismount your main weapon system without direct support then you ain't nothin but a taxi."
Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 25, 2002
KitMaker: 501 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 10:53 AM UTC
Foilage and trees, eh. TARGET Reference bush moving across open prarie. Fire when on! On. Armed. Firing................BOOM.
We're not to big on trees up here
North Dakota, United States
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 1,796 posts
Armorama: 1,207 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 12:39 PM UTC
Thanks guys!
What an excellent thread. A real education for an old AF Medic. I'll probably still suck at weathering, but now I have some idea what will look right. :-)
Charles F. Bush, MSgt, USAF, Ret
"Could be worse, could be raining."
New Jersey, United States
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
Armorama: 1,483 posts
Posted: Monday, December 09, 2002 - 01:03 PM UTC
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, December 09, 2002 - 02:14 PM UTC
I don't think anyone said modern armor doesn't get that dirty. In fact I believe I said they get just as muddy. It's just that at the end of an exercise/deployment/gunnery/war/etc. modern armor tends to go through a wash rack and maybe even a paint booth, or at least some spot painting. WW2 armor, on the other hand, was seen as either brand new factory fresh, just coming off of a transportation vessel, battle worn or destroyed. Very little of the pre-redeployment staging of WW2 tanks. I think a lot of armor was left in Europe at the end of the war, not much was returned.
Nice photos Scott.
North Carolina, United States
Joined: March 10, 2004
KitMaker: 38 posts
Armorama: 30 posts
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2004 - 09:36 AM UTC
I remember the one place my FIST-V always had mud caked in was inside the lip of the roadwheels. No matter how much water we went through after they got muddy, that stuff was in there good, level to the lip. Also any amount of muddy water in the road wheel will effectively keep the wheel brown for days. Another observation from my walk in the motor pool today, there isnt much rush on a modern piece of equipment. Thorough paintjobs, and modern materials (aluminum, composite, etc...) mean relatively rust-free vehicles.
Just an observation.
#099
Indiana, United States
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 926 posts
Armorama: 383 posts
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2004 - 09:50 AM UTC
I can't think of many things worse than trying to "clean" a tracked vehicle...it's impossible...the only time I ever recall seeing a "clean" M106 was when we got three new (actually refurbished) ones in...needless to say, I wanted one of those when it came time for inspections...
Turku ja Pori, Finland
Joined: March 06, 2004
KitMaker: 9 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:35 AM UTC
I think that modern tanks will stay in better condition than they did in WWII. Although during war time like Gulf War the tanks gonna get a lot more damaged than they get at peace time. when tank ´s not in combat they are washed and repaired after every training.
So if you are building modern combat vehicle you have think is it pictured during war or peace. If it´s war time vehicle you may rough it up little more than peace time training vehicle.
Texas, United States
Joined: March 05, 2003
KitMaker: 64 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 07:33 PM UTC
I've spent my share of time on my hands and knees with a whisk broom and dust pan sweeping out the turret of my tank. A trick we used to do for inspections was to clean the interior with a sponge and a bucket of water with a small amount of that Army "pine scented cleaner" in it. As far as I could tell it didn't make the dirt come off more quickly/easily, but it did make the interior "smell" cleaner and fresher than just plain water.
Does this bring back any memories?
It was a lot more "fun" in June than it was in December or January!
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: November 13, 2003
KitMaker: 2,240 posts
Armorama: 808 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 09:39 PM UTC
I think they get as dirty and dusty based on the time they're in use in combat, but as modern wars have so far not been long drawn-out affairs, they probably keep their condition longer.
I imagine if a modern war happened that was as long as say the 2ndWW they would eventually be in the same general condition and as dirty as tanks from that period.
Just a thought
Cheers
Peter
:-)
Wolf Number 9.
A Wing Waggle to modellers everywhere.
Madness is the normal condition, interupted only by spells of sanity.
Ohio, United States
Joined: December 02, 2003
KitMaker: 53 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 11:54 PM UTC
Just my two cents...
I was a boatswainsmate in the Navy, and was stationed on an LPD.
My main job was loading and off-loading Marines and their equipment for land ops. Even during what were only training excercises in places like Korea and Japan, the vehicles, equipment, and Marines always came back onto the ship quite dirty. And although some things were cleaned up, the vehicles usually remained quite dirty until the excercises were over.
As a matter of fact, I still recall hosing down the vehicle storage area after the tanks, jeeps, and amphibious vehicles were off-loaded just to get rid of the accumulated mud and dirt that would fall of of them.
If you are back to where you started, chances are you never left...
Ontario, Canada
Joined: August 05, 2003
KitMaker: 1,698 posts
Armorama: 1,563 posts
Posted: Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:06 AM UTC
Ah, memories! Great thread. Even after the FTX, and after the wash rack, the tracks could still look pretty mangy. The only time I ever really saw them clean was before a GOC inspection.
Here's my M113 back when I was the RecceO (best job in the Regt) AFTER its back from the wash rack
Same track...owgh... the wash rack never did a good job of cleaning the engine bay. We cracked a propeller shaft in this one, doing about 53mph (downhill of course) at CFB Gagetown. Notice that even after the rack, there is still tons of grease stains.
Call me Artsy-Fartsy, but I guess that's the weathering camp I belong to! I think wayy to many guys are using mud to hide build flaws, but to each his own
Why plan when you can react?
