Does modern armour tend to be cleaner than WW 2 armour. Thus less weathering?

Not necessarily, it depends on where you are modeling your subject. A modern tank gets just as dirty and muddy as a WWII tank when it is maneuvering across a muddy field. I think you mainly see modern vehicles sitting in motor pool photos and not in field environs. Also, battle damage or maneuver damage is repaired very quickly with the efficiency of modern supply systems, so vehicles maintain a newer look longer. If you look at photos from Desert Storm, you will see some vehicles with battle damage and heavily covered in dust and grime.

I concur, since there are so few instances of war, you don't have the long drawn out conflicts like WWII so there aren't many times when supply has the opportunity to break down and spare parts aren't as scarce. So battle damage is less evident.

Rob

Absolutely, in times of war, the tankers would be less inclined to wash the vehicle as often if at all. The only time it would be washed is probably for parade or after maintenance.
Modern vehicles are, i believe, washed regularly to stave off corrosion and thus prolong the life of such expensive equipment.
Regards,

Here's my two cents. The tank suspension system need to be checked daily. You have to knock the mud off it to do this essential task. You will never get and keep it clean. You will in any field sitaution always have residual dirt and mud on the front slope, around the turret, on the rear deck and the engine exhaust vents. Against the hull there will be clunks of mud and dust. So, you are never going to find (desert, Europe, a war) a "clean" tank.

Especially with modern U.S. Armor, you have to consider the environment and what the vehicle was doing, at the time, and how long it had been out(out of the motorpool, out of the camp, out of whereever it was based). For example, an M1A1 in Korea may not have much dirt on it, if it was roadmarching, versus if it was playing out at a training area, or a gunnery. Also, the weather has much to do with it. Tanks at Ft. Hood are dirtier for different types of weather. Hot, dry days leaves a dusty film, without much mud buildup in the suspension(nothing a small brush won't knock off), whereas recent rain, or having to ford a stream, or even a heavy fog can change all that from a dust to a paste.

What it really boils down to, is when weathering recent items, you have to almost make up the story line in your head. Such as weather conditions, length of time out and about, what they have been doing, etc, and start going from there. There is no "stock" level of dirtiness.

Agree to all, todays armor, unless in the field is put through a bath you could say, heavy mud is removed with a pressure washer. This is the job of the tank crew. Just like you would do if you were 4 wheeling, wheels and so forth are checked and greased.
Stains for grease, fuel, and paint damages from hitting trees and so forth is checked and fixed if need be.

I agree with what has been said so far. I would add that normal maintenance checks in the field will usually result in mud build-up on the suspension to be knocked off by the crew. Also, I have noticed that mud on fenders, roadwheels, road arms, and fittings starts to dry fairly quickly after it builds up. After any length of time, chunks of it will fall off on their own. Also, crew memebers moving around on the fenders will cause hunks of mud to fall off the underside of the fender. The speed that modern tanks move means that the roadwheels and sprockets are really spinning fast, which usually flings any built up mud off soon after it gets picked up. So mud build up would be the exception, not the rule. Staining and film from the mud would be common however, all over the underside and in traffic areas on the upper surfaces.

I swear that I spent half of my military career in the wash rack, the other half out in the field.

Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature

We carried sawed-off brooms and whisk brooms on our tanks & PCs to keep the interiors of our vehicles relatively clean, dirt and electronics don't mix As was stated by DJ, mud must be removed to do proper preventative maintenance checks - It is hard to check the temperature of a road wheel hubs or add grease if the hubs and grease fittings are covered in mud. The longest I remember going without being able to wash my M113s was during Reforger 78, about 10 days. We did only three things upon returning to the motorpool before hitting the wash rack: account for sensitive items (weapons, night vision devices, etc.), top-off fuel tanks and check fluid levels for engine and transmission - any other after-ops maintainenance came after the wash rack.

Kevin--spoken like a true Mechanized Infantry/Armor Soldier....I swear that I spent almost all my career freezing while 58 tanks and God only knows how many wheeled vehicle went through a given wash rack area. Oh, I'd give anything to have those good old days once again!

I can't add much to what has been said. I spent time on M1A1's at Ft. Knox, Ft. Carson, and in Korea. When the vehicles are at the motorpool, they are pretty darn clean, although you will still see some grease stains, and discoloration around the tank. These subtle variations in the same color are important when weathering your armor model.

As for the field, depending on the environment, a tank could get damn dirty quick. In the field at Knox, are tanks were covered in a red clay type mud in two seconds. And I mean covered! It took us about eight hours at the wash rack to clean the mud of the beasts. In Korea, we went to the field for over thirty days in our vehicles, and at times they would get pretty darn dirty. But every day, our TC would makes us break out the little brooms and sweep away. Also we had a river near our AA, that we would drive the tanks through to clean the muck up off the suspension.

So, just think about where the vehicle your modelling has been, what elements it has been exposed to, and weather from there.

Ok, one more point. The composition of paints has also varied over the past 60 years. German paint in the later half of WW II, was probably not as "tough" as say, modern U.S. Army paint. Thus, much liklier to be scratched and/or dinged and therefore showing the primer underneath. Think about this factor as well when modelling.

Alright alright, I'm done! :-)

Maybe for people who haven't had the opportunity to drive tanks, we could think about a 4 wheel drive. Lots of us own them or have been 'off-road' before.

My truck looks great when on the highway, but as soon as I drive out into a field it gets dirty FAST! Even if there is dry ground and little mud you quickly get dust, grass, etc on the vehicle. And, if there is mud - my red 4X4 turns brown in a hurry.

Also, tanks are much heavier and can move quickly. They really dig into the turf and toss it in the air. You can drive a tank cross-country much faster than a wimpy truck.

But, as soon as I'm finished playing it the mud, I go right to the car wash or hose. It might be 'cool' to drive around covered in mud, but it takes its toll on the finish if left on.

I think a tank crew would feel the same way. Except in circumstances where mud is used as part of the camo, you would want to keep your rig in good shape. Of course in any type of combat or close to combat situation, no one is going to get out and do a washing.

A quick look at reference photos that were taken in combat or soon after combat will show heavily weathered AFVs. Photos taken when a unit was not in action will usually depict clean, almost pristine, vehicles.

Personally, when modelling I love a muddy AFV. To me, if done well, it really adds to the realism and story behind the vehicle. :-)

Steve

Roger that 210cav...

Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature

What better, than to hear it from a real tanker !
Hi DJ, I think you can also verify that if our awesome American amor divisions are not out in real battle ......their tanks are still taking on all that mud & dirt or dust, from training hard at " war games ".
TODAY'S ARMOR MIGHT BE DIFFERENT ..........BUT MUD AND DIRT ARE STILL THE SAME AS 60 YEARS AGO .....( lol ).

- ralph

I was out at Camp Lejeune recently and got the privelege of viewing the live fire range. The tankers had done little except drive from base to the range on crushed stone and dirt roads and every tracked vehicle was covered from the hull roof down in a thick layer of dusty dirt. I'm sure they were a whole lot dirtier by the time they got done with the excercises.

Modern tanks get just as muddy as WW2 tanks did, except that they are not in war games for as long as WW2 tanks were in combat. Modern tanks are parked in concrete motorpools while in garrison. Even after hitting the wash rack, you'd be surprised at the amount of mud that shakes loose from the tank while it moves from the wash rack to the motorpool! Motorpools had to be swept so it paid to wash off as much mud at the wash rack as possible.

As far as weathering, when modern tanks get too worn, they are sent back to the paint booths. Usually happens about once a year at Ft. Hood. For some reason, wheeled vehicles and other tracks don't get pushed through the paint booths as often.

I'm like Kevin & DJ, I remember many field exercises, wash racks and gunnery ranges. Remember the Graf TTVII range? What was it? Rg 132? That range was miserable in the November-March time frame, waiting for the fog to lift with freezing rain drizzling down the back of your "Graf Jacket" at 0300, hoping that there will be a break so you can put a round down range before the range goes dry at 0600. What memories, makes my shoulders hurt just thinking about hunching them trying to stay warm.

I remember spending much of my wash rack time under the tank washing out behind the inner road wheels. I got that honor since I was the smallest member of the tank crew. Yes, officers do wash their own tanks too. Or at least the ones with tanks in their blood.

Unfortunately, this grunt's one and only trip to the Graf was on foot. As (bad) luck would have it, I ended up in the sole remaining 'straight legged' Infantry unit based in USAREUR. I walked everywhere!

2/4 Infantry.... oohah!

My only real experience with MECH INF and the M113 was at Ft. Dix NJ, Ft. Polk LA., Ft. Hood TX, Ft. Drum NY and CFB Gagetown. Later on they gave me four wheels and I would watch all the MECH guys and their tracks having a ball....even in the wash racks.

Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature

Heh. I am tracking on all you guys that miss it, but speaking as one who is still experiencing it, sometimes it not *quite* as fun as I like to try and remember it. First time ever on a washrack, many moons ago, my gunner handed me a high pressure hose and had me get underneath. Literally blew myself down the length of the tank. Definitely a learning experience.

It's also not that uncommon to see crews take the opportunity, if the water is available, to at least wash down the front slopes and skirts some, as some crewmembers might sleep there. All kinds of variations to look at, and to try, anything from a tank after a short jaunt, to one that just got pulled out of a sinkhole with piles of dirt on the roof.

But, Sabot is right. Usually, your heavier vehicles will hit the paint booth on a rather frequent basis, but a Humvee, or something light, will rarely go through a complete repaint. And, depending on the situation your vehicle has been in, you may have part of previous paintjobs showing through scrapes. Tanks in Korea had tan paint showing, as well as the previous three tone scheme. Usually showing through at scrape points. Another note, also, is that many times your tank parts come in stock green, and as it probably doesn't match your tank color, many crews will repaint them, to match somewhat. And, in doing so, it also alters the affect that water, mud, dirt, or dust has on your vehicle's look.

Greasing and oiling operating parts were ever a part of down time routine. builtup mud on our 60s was a good culprit for a thrown track and in the mountains of the levant that could mean death. I remember that being the a reason for the red paint on high maintnace points. also when not in combat or in use MAgs were covered inplastic as were som eother equipment .I was in before even more fancy comps were added with detection systems and now I understand alla round TV monitor,and cleanup took long enough in winter it somtimes got even harder . as getting into your tank meant jusstepping on to the fender from 5' deep snow. I rememeber the Army fondly for a number of things maintaining my track is not high up an that list. so as all the other treadheads have said tanks do still get dirty. only now you need even more specialist than a good mechanic to check and keep em' running.

Josh
aKA shiryon

Who said I missed it? I run several ASI "H8" courses throughout the year. We get vehicles stuck in the mud past the fenders on purpose to let recovery specialists learn how to yank them out. Much fun.

Heh. That's what you get. *chuckle* Are you using 88A1's for your recovery course, or the A2?

Boy, o' boy,
Talking about trying to regain your misspent youth... Yep, we remember the good times & conviently forget the bad ones: washing the tanks at 31 degrees, track replacement in knee to thigh deep mud, looking for that lost sensitive item, hoping that the battalion commander, or worse the CSM didn't have it already...

I have to agree with what has already been said about the trends today to keep the vehicles looking cleaner while in garrison and semi-clean in the field to account for mainternance, and that slightly off kilter vehicle commander who has a thing for a clean vehicle... My personal feeling is that there is a certain amount of maintenance & upkeep that goes to the wayside during the times of conflict and is caught up on during the lulls in battle. I can remember dropping the ramp on my scout M113 at Ft Bliss (DJ, remember that one before the trip to Canada??) pulling everything out anc cleaning it top to bottom. Ya'll can only live in the dirt & grime so long... Now, which of you out there builds and weathers their models to represent real life and who is part of that "artsy-fartsy," paint chipping, pre/post shading crowd??

"This is Dragon 3 Ancient , now conducting my survivability move, out"

John

No A2s here yet. We are due to get them fielded to us as soon as all the real units are fully fielded. Good thing is that all my beat up M88A1s are being replaced by depot rebuilt M88A1s because of the new A2s going out to the divisions.

We also run the course for the wheeled guys using the M984E1, M936A2, and a brand new FMTV wrecker (M1084?).

The old M578 VTR is one of the stuck vehicles we use along with an old M60A3 for over turned vehicle training. Flipping 60s is a lot of fun.