Thank-you Michal

well i can see where you'd want to be highly mobil in the new world, but i have to force you to look to the news. i speak of the picture of the US ARMY ranger on a horse, the original ATV. see our problem is when we think of a highly mobile force, we think in means of a vehicle, the US special force use them to get to the area of operations then we use quieter more reliable means to bugger the bad guy. MichalBT might i suggest that y'all look into the H-60 for rapid deployment or evn some of the other toys we offer for the changing environment. the LAV the is getting is has several varients, but one chasis, all the mods are modular and easily changed in the feild, but then of course the best tool for ruining someones day is the all american Nimitz Class carrier, but alas even though it look like a toy to me (sorry) it works, but will it work from the back of an LHD (look up the WASP Class on Janes). or even better can it be airdropped in ahurry? stug

OK, well back to the original discussion. I'm still not clear on which of the vehicles we have links to are the right one, but I suspect that either will work in the role they are chosen for. I agree that vertical armor plates look wrong to us, but whether they are effective depends on what they are to defend against. Light armored vehicles operate in a different threat environments, usually lower, than conventional tanks and heavier AFVs.

If they are to defend against rocks and molotov cocktails, as in a riot, they armor protection is not so critical. Vertical armor has the advantage of being hard to climb on, so it is probably effrective for riot control. Few rioters have AP ammo or weapons over .50 cal.

As we already know, sloped armor is more effective against conventional projectiles, whithin reason. So sloped is a good choice for low-level threat environments. However, in high-level threat environments, conventional sloped armor is not as effective.

As far as slope is concerned, slopes above about 30 degrees don't have a lot of affect on long-rod penetrators ("sabot", or high velocitiy anti-tank projectiles). In fact, research shows that the pentrator will actually tend to "turn" to the minimum armor thickness, penetrating nearly perpendicular to the face of the armor. This is why tanks have become more boxy and squared-off in recent years. In the very high-threat, tank vs. tank environment they were designed for, the box to hold the armor 'sandwich' was/is more important than the angle of the armor face.

As potential threats have decreased, we are now seeing angles reappear, over the top of the box shapes, as in the Leopard 2A5. The newer armor packages defend against mid-range threats (smaller caliber HEAT rounds, and handheld AT missiles).

Stug,

For sure Polish Army can't afford to be the most mobile force in the world
Polish Rapid Combat teams are not a part of our special forces (like: FORMOZA, GROM , or 1st Special Regiment), air cavarly (25th Brigade) or airborne (6th Brigade). But our light forces have to give them effective support. And they are trained to operate together
Polish Air Cavarly uses SOKOL helicopter for transporting and assaulting our troops. And soon Poland, Czech and Hungary start together a deep modernization program of (Mi-24 (this attack helicopter is designed for transporting soldiers, too). Several companies like EUROCOPTER (they built Tiger attack helicopter) are interested in it
We will use AMV in several variants, too. And one of the biggest advantages of this Finnish vehicles is their modular construction (hope one day I will see it even with 120mm gun )

Regards,

Michal

The organisation I work for has supplied systems for military vehicles for several decades, both tracked and wheeled, and currently has equipment fitted in vehicles (from MBT's to 4x4's) in service all over the world - including the Patria AMV.

As such, I can tell you that the Polish trials showed that the AMV was by far the superior platform - no matter how vertical the sides of the hull may seem! What you can see on the exterior is not necessarily the actual shape of that which is underneath - if you look at a Bradley with its 'skin' on it also appears somewhat slab-sided, something which can be said for many vehicles. The AMV is designed to fill the gap between wheeled APC's (LAV, Piranah, Pandur) and tracked IFV's (Bradley, M113, BMP), and its protection level is designed to suit such a requirement.

It has been stated that "lightly armoured wheeled vehicles are.....usually automotively unreliable" - let me assure you that, compared to tracked vehicles, they are as reliable as the best Japanese automobile! Tracked vehicles are by their very nature much more complicated beasts (and I use that word advisedly), and the less that is said about the shock and vibration levels due to the tracks the better - reliability is not one of their strong points. On top of this they are expensive to buy, expensive to run, need specialist training for the crews, require specialist tradesmen to maintain and are difficult to get to the battlefront. As far as an MBT is concerned, having fired its weapon the only course of action available is to run away FAST, as everybody knows about you and is after your blood. It is also a good idea to run away backwards, keeping the front of your vehicle to the enemy, as the armour protection level at the rear of most MBT's is not much better than that on the wheeled APC!

By using proven automotive components for the powerpack and drivetrain, allied to suitably 'modified' and 'enhanced' equipments, vehicles such as the AMV provide a package that can be operated by just about anyone that can drive a car, serviced by anyone with truck experience, are a reasonable price to purchase, are cost effective to operate and can be transported to the battlezone quickly - the AMV is C130 capable. Patria are now, I believe, the largest supplier of this class of armoured wheeled vehicle in Europe - a position not achieved by not providing what the customer wants, and continuing to do so day after day.

As I understand it, AMV stands for Advanced Modular Vehicle, and its modules will include: Troop Carrier, Infantry Fighting Vehicle, Command Vehicle, Ambulance, Engineering Vehicle, Recce Vehicle, Mortar Carrier etc, etc, and it will be supplied to the Polish M.o.D. in both 8x8 (the majority) and 6x6 versions - so much for the modularity of the LAV!

MBT's and tracked IFV's have their place, but vehicles such as the Piranah, LAV, Pandur and now the AMV are the backbone of any modern army.

My general apologies for the ranting nature of this post, however I felt it necessary to point out a few facts, and congratulate the Finns on producing the best vehicle in its class, and the Poles on their choice.