Hi,

Today representatives of Polish Army deciced to choice combat vehicle for our army. We had 3 possibilities: Austrian Pandur 2, Finnish Patria AMV and Swiss Piranha 3. After tests (and after negotiations) we choiced Patria AMV. We will buy 690 of them. 400 of them will receive HITFIST turret armed with 30mm Bushmaster 2 gun.
So this 2002 is really important year for Polish Army: not only Leopard 2 will stay in our line.

Regards,

Michal

MIchal - COOL!

Some more new AFV's to model.

Later,
Dave

Does anyone know of a site where we can see this vehicle? (:-)

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/armoured/patria_vehicles/index.html

I found this one...

http://www.sovereign-publications.com/patria.htm

And another... both from Google.

Hey, sense when did TONKA start making armour. Did we not learn back in WW2 that flat sides were a bad thing!!!! Gotta say though nice looking target!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to agree... must be the low bidder or something. The thing looks like a death trap in any sort of real combat...

Hi,

I hope Matt from Full Metal Jacket will post my detail photos of Patria AMV soon Link to photos which was put by 2-2 Dragoon shows early prototype. Our vehicle looks a little bit different.
And I don't know why you have so bad opinion about this vehicle Guys from Scandinavia can build not only mobile phones
Flat surfaces? You should consider angle of these surfaces, their thickness, etc. And still we should remember about mobility and reliability of total vehicle.
We could compare (and buy) different vehicles- including Piranha III which is used by US as Stryker. But during tests AMV was the best construction.

Regards,

Michal

Looks like a VAB 4X4. Sorry Poland but that is one hell of a nasty looking.....thing.
At least you can count on the UK to bail you guys out if it comes to it....lol. (and others I guess).
NO Offence meant, just sayin what I see.

Martin,

I can't see any similarities between AMV and VAB. Probably you're talking about Patria XA vehicle. And this is NOT Patria AMV

Photos of AMV

Regards,

Michal

Hi,

To solve problems how Patria AMV looks like- you can see its detail photos on FMJ site:
AMV
Photos were taken during military expo in Kielce.

Hope it helps,

Michal

Hi MichalBT. I think this AFV looks very fine fella.

You want to know what I think is the problem some of these other posters have with this AFV? They are biased against Polish people. It is a sentiment in parts of the United States (mostly older urban hubs) against Poles. This is because Poles worked harder than they did when they first came to the United States. Where I am originally from (Wisconsin), Germans, Swedes, and Poles were all their were and everyone was self supportive therefore there isn't any anymosity. In fact, the Polish President was here in the United States with my president visiting Michigan, where there are many Poles.

Alas, though, Poland won their argument with the EU and will recieve the concessions they demanded, as to not be treated like a 2nd rate member. I think most of the anti polish bias in the EU, though, is that Poland will work harder than them and if they can't keep em down in the end they will end up with less.

More power to ya, from the U.S., Sgt. BigAlski

Hi SgtBigAlski,

Thanks for fair words.
The history of Poland in 20th century shows many examples of "help" from another European nations (few dates: 1920, 1939, 1943, 1945). So it's really important to have real friends and allies. But the most important thing for Poland is- to work harder :-) But at least we will have excellent AFV.

Regards and Merry X-mas,

[quote]Hi MichalBT. I think this AFV looks very fine fella.

You want to know what I think is the problem some of these other posters have with this AFV? They are biased against Polish people. It is a sentiment in parts of the United States (mostly older urban hubs) against Poles.


Yes there is a bias againts Poles by some people, but there are biases againts all kinds of groups here in the states. I think the real issue here though is that ever since the mid 17th century Poland has not been seen as a military power, so any new weapons we get are seen as second class of sorts. This is not to say that Pols aren't great warriors, and they have proved themselves as individuals or as units time and time again in the wars of the last few centuries. Lets not forget Napoleon's Polish Lancers, General Kozciusko in the american revolution and durring the uprisings back home, the partisan uprisings in Warsaw in 1944 and the list goes on.

Its a shame that the oodles of BS we see on the history channel and other edutainment never seems to mention anybody but Hitler, the Egyptian Pharraos, and tons of pseudo-scientific Eric Von-Deniken crap.

Oh and to the fella who wants the Pols to wait for Britain to bail them out.....maybe you can say thank you to the soldiers of the many nations (including Poland) who helped save your butts back in '40. On that note I hand this soap-box over to someone else.


BTW that is an ugly AFV, but aren't all modern ones?

hey not biased against pols here just think history would have even taught the low bidder a lesson in round deflection. see flet sides just take the round and let it in, angled sides deflect the round alonmg the slope of the armor reducing the rounds effect of the afv, thats why the lav is shaped the way it is. btw i admit the m113 was a mistake lol #:-) stug

Hi,

Thanks for your support. I fully agree with you- before 17th century Poland was one of the most powerful countries in Europe. But also after this we did sth (like destroying Soviet forces in battle near Warsaw in 1920- according BRITISH historians it was one from 50th the most important battles in history of our world). And Polish army was 4th the biggest army fighting as ally in WW2 in Europe. And we also paid the highest price for it. We lost not only people, money and piece of land- but also we were deserted by Western politicians in Teheran and Jalta.

Regards,

Michal

Or...perhaps Poland spent 50 years behind the Iron Curtain, and Western writers have had no access to Polish military records and information in that time. I know it isn't as attractive as a world-wide conspiracy to discriminate against Poles, but my immediate and recent experience tells me it is a better answer. Just because the Curtain fell doesn't mean we automatically know everything that has happened since the First World War. I don't think anyone is dissing the Polish, their military, or their weapons. We just don't have much info to base our views on, and not many sources to obtain such info from.

Perhaps instead of getting all defensive, you could find ways to educate us with informative posts, links, resources, and references (preferrably in english, since most of us don't speak Polish...again, not conspiracy, just practical fact.). Maybe you could write a book or make a film to better inform us, instead of criticizing us for not knowing what we don't know.

And yes, I do know what I am talking about...I work with two Polish officers, a Romanian, a Bulgarian, and a Finnish officer, every day. They have the same problem and some of them are making the effort to inform and teach us about their homes and militaries. (:-)

Hi,

To make it clear- I don't take your comments as actions against Poles. For sure I don't believe world- wide conspiracy theories against Poland. And I don't criticize you for not knowing history of my country. Frankly speaking- I don't know many facts from history of other countries, too
The best way of learning you about my country is to inform you about the most important facts. And therefore I posted information about results of contract for wheeled AFV :-) Tomorrow we will know what multi-role combat aircraft we will use in future

This link will allow you to learn more about Polish armour. I took these photos to help you to learn more about "hardware" of our army (only Piranha 3C and Rys are only proposals):
Polish Army equipment p.1
Polish Army equipment p.2

Photos of other equipment will be posted soon.

And here is a link to official site of Polish Ministry of Defence:
MON


Best regards to you and your friends,

Michal

hey mike, who designed the PT-91 mbt? it look familiar to alot of russian stuff, and that had a lot nice reference photos for us thanks stug

Hi Stug,

You're right. PT-91 Twardy MBT is deep modified T-72 tank. And it's built by Bumar- Labedy factory BTW: this version of tank won a contract for Malaysian Army (ww will supply them with WZT-3 armored recovery vehicles and PMC-90 armoured launched bridges, too).
Soon we should see the newest- "leopardisated" version of PT-91. It's prepared together with German Rheinmetall. For sure it will receive new 120mm main gun (for NATO ammo). And it will make us to change another elements like turret, suspension and engine (powerpack?).
PT-91 and Leopard 2A4 are the working horses of Polish Army.

Regards,

Michal

Great! That is truly a cool vehicle. Maybe now some model kit manufacturer would take this model in consideration! (With an optional AMOS mortar system, please!)
Go Poland!
Go Finland!



Toni

To ArenGCA.

I appologize for comming off as defensive, I just thought this thread would go off into the "hey those fools charged tanks on horse-back" direction, and ok, I guess that made me a little bit defensive. You're absolutely right about the eastern-bloc nations being unknown, in terms of history, geography, culture and all to the west (ask me anything about Bulgaria for example and I can point to it on a map but thats about all I know).

Now back to the matter at hand, yes unagled sides are not a great thing to have, but you do see it a lot on some modern afvs. I guess it depends on the combat role this thing is going to fill. M113's have straight sides, hell they're boxes on wheels, but they performed somewhat admirably... I guess if you take angles and curves as the determining factor in defensibility then the ideal AFV would be a VW Bug with a Milan system mounted on the roof :-) Anybody want to take a modeling stab at that?

Ralph

I have no prejudice against the Polish people, in fact am a student of history and admire their fortitude and resistance to the hegemony of dictators and tyrants since early European history, include the Russian Czars and Ottoman Turks.

The comments on the vehicle were based more on a prejudice against lightly armored wheeled vehicles in general. They are usually automotively unreliable and do not have a high combat survivability in most cases. For Poland, which is now more or less surrounded by NATO, there is less danger than there used to be of a large war. Good, wheeled vehicles are more useful in urban or security settings, anyway.

Spaced add-on or reactive armor and proper tactical deployment mades such vehicles useful and they are cheaper than tracks. They are also more flexible, usually able to mount a wide variety of weapons, etc. and act in number of different roles, including ambulance.

So, please understand that I was not criticizing you or Poles.

Hi,

I think I should explain sth. about strategy of Polish army.
During Iron Curtain our army was armed (and trained) to fight in global military conflict- between NATO and Warsaw Pact (at the beginning of this war our soldiers would attack Austria and Denmark).
Today possibility of heavy military conflict in our neighbourhood is very low. But last years (war in ex- Yugoslavia, Sept. 11th) make us to create rapid combat forces. These units don’t need to be haevily armed- but have to be immediately ready to fight in every region of world (strategic mobility). They will be able to operate as independent combat teams. So we have to meet several logistic requirements (unifying of their armour and equipment. possibility of transporting them by air, etc). And majority of wheeled AFV will go to these units.
If it is necessary our light forces will receive support from heavily armed forces. These units have BMP (tracked AFV). It’s very possible that soon we will start modernisation program of this vehicle, too.

Regards,

Michal

Speaking for myself as the main protagonist of the arguement, Michal should know that there was no offence meant in my post! Which I believe he does!
WE are, after all neighbours in Europe. WHAT I DID mean was that we the British would continue to watch over our neighbours AS brothers in arms.
AND if necessary bail them or any one else out as we do all the time (Kosovo / croatia / Falklands / Aden / Burma / need I continue?).
Perhaps this thread should continue in the politics or current affairs section of the forims?

Martin,

I understand you. And for sure I don't take your comments personally

Regards,

Michal