I will do my best to answer everyone questions in all of the following replies.
- Rick these are from the records of order's & regulations that a very, very, very reliable
source of mine ( which will remain unnamed for the time ) of W.W.IIGerman armor research went to a lot of trouble to dig up for me. PLEASE READ ON:

Now regarding the color DUNKELGELB. As noted in Para 1 of the regulation there was no assigned RAL number. This was to be assigned later. What does this mean? There are several different variants of the color known as DUNKELGELB as follows:

Dunkelgelb nach Muster with no RAL number: This was the first dark yellow issued in February 1943 to replace RAL 7021 dark gray per the regulation. It is yellow hued or very sand colored. It was used only for a few months before being replaced with dunkelgelb RAL 7028.

Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 variant #1: This was a pinkish light brown hue. It can be made with Humbrol enamels in the following mixture:
3 parts of Number 93 plus 1 part of Number 84

Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 variant #2: This was a dark yellow brown hue. It can be made with Humbrol enamels in the following mixture:
3 parts of Number 93 plus 1 part of Number 119

Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 variant #3. This was a greenish yellow gray hue. It can be made with Humbrol enamels using Number 84

What all this means is that Dunkelgelb can be a significant range of color.

Now "thebear" states ( and he has good reason ) that there was only one DUNKELGELB with no variants. ( He get's this from research done by Tom Jentz ).
So right now I am cross-referencing all information in my book's, and am waiting for two of my sources to get back to me, because "thebear" has a very legitimate arguement and I will either show him undeniable proof of the variant colors ( above ) through my research, or I will let him know that he is absolutely correct.
FAIR ENOUGH GENTLEMEN ??????

- ralph

Hi Rick, this say's that the Zimmerit was dropped and the panzers came directly from the factory with a basecoat of Rot "dark-red " ( also known as Red-Oxide primer/anti-corrosive )and the camo patches were applied very randomly, which would leave more of the Rot basecoat showing. I have some pic's but unfortunately, I don't have a scanner. I will try to find some for you on the internet and post them .............OK' ?
Also , the werkstattkompanie or tanks crew's themselves would sometimes add the patches, behind the front lines, after the Rot colored tank was delivered to them.
Sometimes the King tiger's and other armor just remained with the red-oxide primer base and no camo pattern or markings were applied .................quite often mistaken in late war photo's as "panzer grey".

- ralph

Hi Bear ..........those chips were never said to be authentic .........because THERE NOT !
There only close examples from what I know of.
And with all due respect ............. what makes you think that this StuG has it's original coat
of paint from W.W.II on it ? I'm kindly asking because I don't know anything about this tank in the Patton Museum and look at what our military did to those German tanks at Aberdeen PG.

- ralph

hey guys,
Being to the patton museum in kentucky, the stug in question is a resoration and i for one don't follow restoration. just look at the atrocities dome to the tigers and king tigers at bovington and samur. the colors used there don't have anything to do with the color chips from germany, and bovington admit to repainting the tanks to "ease" testing by british crews. so on that note you can't trust any restoration. and the true question i posted was about panzer grey on late german armour, see the problem is there was shortage on yellow with feild units and an abundance of grey. so there's the argument really, tank shows up in red oxide crews paint the tanks, who's to say they didn't use he grey they had in syead waiting for the yellow to arrive. if it ever did with allied aircraft taking shot at any targets of oppertunity. this is the real topic but feel free to post wot you will, p.s. pigments changed from batch to batch and consistence from vat to vat changed. stug

.stug ..............where is the proof that they did return to gray ? ( photo's - record's ???? ).
What I have given record of, aside from the DUNKELGELB thingy, is that proven
records & photo's show that the panzer's were leaving the factories in the red-oxide anti-corrosive in the late months of the last year of the war. Adding patches of camo were sometimes applied and sometimes not.
In the case of the latter with just red-oxide base ...........these were the tanks often mistaken
as panzer grey. However, I am trying to find an official record & authentic photo's of this speculation of returning to panzer grey. And until it's found it's just .........SPECULATION................HERE-SAY..........and MYTH without any official late war photo's and records like there is of single basecoats of Rot and Dunkelgelb that have been documented & photographed.
I do agree with you on the restoration thing 100%

- ralph

the basis for this arguement is the fact that panthers and jagdpanthers were found to be painted german grey after late '44!!!!!!!! where else are we going to find such fun in modeling? we find ourselves saying this is speculation and so on so forth, but wot about the kubelblitz, panther F, and MYSTERY german armour that was said to have fought in the last days of germany, this question color is the same argument that has been going on for decades and everyone still says "i want proof!!!!!!!!" well its there in the photos, and color analysis that we are not qualified to do. the only real people who answer this are old and retired if not dead. aside from the fact the last person to speach on the matter, colonel VAN LUCK, stated that the shortages in paint forced his unit and a SS panther unit to use panzer Grey to paint vehicles in the retreat from russian froces across Poland. i'm sure if someone can contact one of the few survivors of russin gulogs we have an answer to this question in short order, but since most arn't alive we stuck in a debate over this. i say lets do our own un qualified photo analysis and have fun, i thought that was the point behind this hobby, if we give up in this then the rivet counters win, i just can't let that happen!!!!!!!!!!!! stug

Hi stug............I have nothing against the modeler who wants to do things
his way, or even paint a King Tiger pink with blue polka dot's.
But as far as military scale modeling goes for me and some other's ---- I like building & painting my models & dioramas to the closest means of historical accuracy as I can. The way it was back in W.W.II - Korea - Viet Nam - etc. etc. is the way I want to depict my stuff. And that is where the fun and enjoyment is for me. I have always loved to research & read everything about military history.........the majority of it being W.W.II.
......so if I can help a newbie or someone else who thrive for the same standard's of historical accuracy as I do, but they don't have any answers to their question's ...............then they can gain knowledge by reading threads as such as these ........and most importantly see how, where and why this information was referenced.


REGARDS
- ralph

Hey guys ....I'm sorry if I started an arguement here ...Not my intention ...just stating what I believe....I'm the first person to believe the dunkelgleb could be different from one batch to another (just try and go back and get that color you put on the wall last week and see if they can make a perfect match...Not!! I agree completely that it must have varied alot ...I think for the panzer grey issue that probably no order was given but what happened in the field was up to the commanders...I have heard the story of a british officer who was standing on the Tiger 1 number F13 at the end of the war ....It was detroyed by a comet..to this day he swears the tank was grey.read this story ,youcan find it on the missing lynx site ...and do a google and you will find someone who had just spoke to the man in the pictures with his dog ...he is the officer who swears it was grey .....So in finishing ...Was there an order ???? probably not ...were there tanks painted in panzer grey ??? Who knows?? Wouldn't it be fun to take a trip back in time ?? I think what we all should and this is how I think ..if you want to do something different ...do it !! If you want to do something different and win at a show ...well bring the documentation to prove where you got it ...I was thinking of doing this hybrid tiger and painting it grey ....But if I show up with it at the show I will certainly print off that conversation and place it next to my kit .... And remember it's a hobby guys ....

Rick

thanks bear, you seem to have gotten the just of the conversation, see my basis is the memoirs of a colonel in the panzer corp. who was forced in unit and others to use grey, yours is a brit who swears he killed a tiger in grey clothes. right now i have bf 109e from north africa in the work shop, it had "zebra strips" from mid fusalage to the tail as part of the camo. i can't find documentation but it looks fun and the challenge of duplicating the sheme is what i personally am looking forward to. thanks and good luck stug

Hi bear. as far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with some good ole'
fashion debate amongest modeler's.
Please don't think it was an arguement. As I hope stug enjoyed our friendly debate . I think it just show's our interest's & dedication. I certainly respect stug's view's and I don't harbor any hard feeling's ......and I hope he feel's the same.
.............................However the "just of the conversation " as stug say's is actually to have some consideration for the serious minded newbie who is reading these threads and wanting to enter competition and then have him get criticised at a show for using that info on his model. ...........................Better to leave him with reference that was 100% authentic and was known to be. So just include where this info on Von Luchs and his retreating panzer's can be found, so now they have this reference on hand if their questioned, by other modelers or history buffs out there like me who want to know how they went about getting there incentive for the theory in question.
Yes it's a hobby, and there's also certain levels that modelers like to involve themselves
with it. some are serious - some are not - and some fall inbetween the lines.
The thing is to enjoy what your doing.

- ralph

eagle the printed version of his memoirs is called, PANZER COMMANDER and you could pick it up at BARNES AND NOBLE where i got it, very interesting read stug

OK .........now this is what I wanted to see, sounds great Stug.
I definitely am going to pick it up as soon as I'm able. We have a Barnes
And Noble in town. If they don't have it I'll look for it on the web.
THANKS

- ralph

I really enjoyed our conversation ...I agree with both of you ...If you are doing it for yourself ,do as you wish ....if you are doing it for a show ,...don't forget your book because if I'm judging I want to know where the heck you got that info!!!!

Richard....