I want y'alls opinion here. I have several kits finished and two are in panzer grey after '43: one is jagdpanther and the other in in the works its a panther G. My references show the panther G in grey "uniform". N ow i know the old fight aboutgrey and yellow. but i have to hear what y'all think.

stug

Hi Stug . See this link by the very authoritive Tom Jentz on German paint & camo.
http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts.htm
Also try a search here on ArmoramA , Google, and Missing Links. Alot has been posted on this subject. I will say this............. a Jagdpanther painted "panzer grey " - It's your model so you can paint it whatever color you like. BUT as for the real deal in W.W.II ....I doubt it very much !

- ralph

Hi StuG,

Ho! goodie goodie! Authentic vs realism--as far as known!

What I've read is that very late war, about any paint scheme could be found owing to lack of accessible stocks, expedience, and 'to the devil with regs--do what is needed!'

I read a guesstimation that Pzr Gray was re-introduced in '45 as the WM was fighting more in built-up areas--lots of shadows.

My favorite paint scheme is the early '43 to Kursk scheme of Dk Green streaked Pzr Gr oversprayed with the new Dk. yellow. Perhaps you could do the Panther in Pzr yellow with used-at-hand Pzr gray stripes or blotching? Never seen any documentation, but plaUSIBLE.

Would/should it win at a show? A friend entered an olive drab M2A1in 8th Army Desert Rat markings in a show, it won; had I been a judge, I'd have not given it anything. That is for another post. But for your own consumption, do what keeps your hobby enjoyable. I tend to make up units so that I can experiment with markings. Keeps me happy.

Hey dude
I would say after '42 that any German vehicle painted in grey was a throw back.The three colour camoflage scheme was used exclusivly until the latter ran out.

The LAH took delivery of two Jadgtigers direct from the factory,still painted in red oxide primer and nothing else.This was in April 45 i think,so it might be possible that towards the end of the war you could have had some AFV's in grey.Although i think it unlikly.

Hawkeye

After the failure of the Battle of the Bulge and the German rout in the face of the Allied spring counter-offensive, the supply situation got so bad that anything and everything that could be used for camouflage was. The original Panzergrau gave superior shadow effects in built-up areas such as rubbled cities and factories and photo evidence shows its use in several instances in 1945 right up to and including the Battle of Berlin. Although not officially sanctioned, it did the job, just as remaining stocks of pre-war Czech paints were used by units in Czechoslovakia and on new vehicles such as Hetzers that were still being delivered from the Skoda works.

thanks for your opinoins try this on for size. A tiger II in panzer grey!!!! what do y'all think

Sorry stug ............I said my peace

- ralph

Me too.I jsut don't see it myself.You could make a good case for it being painted in Red oxide primer,but not grey.As far as i know from my books there never was a Tiger 11 in grey,anywhere.

Later
Hawkeye

Well, I wasn't there, and I have great faith in books to document...ummm, well...documented history. So I guess my answer is definitely maybe.

Given the state of affairs in the Reich and Wehrmacht after about 1943, I would tend to admit the possiblitity of virtually any colored vehicle. With production pressures, a paint shipment disrupted by bombing, and a store room with old stocks of grey paint available....who knows. I know that the books don't show it (yet), and our knowledge (based on books instead of firsthand research from source documents) doesn't want to admit it, but grey paint jobs are very possible. I won't go for likely, but if you can develop a good story then go for it!

There is clear photographic evidence of a return to grey in late '44 - '45, especially in the Panther G. As with others writing here other than the Panther I seriously doubt any other German AFV was painted grey. And not just grey. Red oxide primer with grey overspray. Red oxide primer with green overspray, panzer yellow overspray etc.

There exists a piece of combat film footage of a Pershing taking out a Panther G near the Cathedral in Cologne, Germany. Although black and white the Panther is painted with a dark on dark camo pattern. Obviously not panzer yellow with green and red brown "ambush" paint scheme. But as for JadgPathers, Tiger IIs, Stugs etc. I think you are more accurate with panzer yellow and green/red brown camo.

Why so many Panzer Grey vehicles? Was there a sale on paint or something?

Pesrsonally, I think an all dark yellow vehicle would be more appropriate than grey at this point.

Why not go with a simple 3 color camo? Even a whitewash job for some variety.

Steve

A tiger II in panzer grey!!!! what do y'all think

Hi All,

If you choose to do this speculative scheme, just make sure it has the Henschel turret. All 50 Porsche-turret Tiger IIs came from the factory in zimmerit.

TTFN

There exists a piece of combat film footage of a Pershing taking out a Panther G near the Cathedral in Cologne, Germany. Although black and white the Panther is painted with a dark on dark camo pattern. Obviously not panzer yellow with green and red brown "ambush" paint scheme. But as for JadgPathers, Tiger IIs, Stugs etc. I think you are more accurate with panzer yellow and green/red brown camo.
[/quote]

Hi GSP,

I beg to differ that, " Obviously not panzer yellow with green and red brown." Perhaps a list member trained in photo development can explain the nuts-n-bolts, but b/w film can show some funky depictions of color, for instance, yellow can appear darker than red.

That amazing film is shot through battle haze haze, I don't recall how well lit the street was. In shadow, the dark yellow could appear dark indeed!

Panthers and Tiger IIs were also painted a rather dark scheme of predominately Dk Green and red brown with minimal Dk yellow.

BTW, the account of the filming of that event is in the book Steel Coffins, by Belton Cooper.

FWIW, ' what color is it really' is not just armor related. I used to work for the son of the then currator of the Air Force Museum in Dayton. He told me that those P-51s so beloved by modelers and warbird restorers-- those with the field-applied blue upper surfaces--were really not blue, but OD. A heated controversy arose concerning it; the AFM had the film negatives analyzed--it was OD--and even had the pilots submit an affidavit to that fact.

Suprisingly, those who want it to have been blue have ignored the truth.

Sorry, the # of the group/squadron escapes me. Now, I recall there WERE some P-51s that DID have blue applied topside. These were 'freaks', and not of the unit in question.

All the best,

Fred

there you go guys, that's the point of the question!!!!! this is a question of debatefor years. lets see wot y'all can do with the fact that b&w photos are easily misjudged even by the experts. i read an article about a 250/9 that was said by anylists to be yellow/green/and dark brown and when they took a color photo of the vehicle the colors changed postionsthe greens were actuly yellows the yellows greens and the shocker panzer grey was the "Dark Brown".. now i can't wait for the pics of the king tiger the unearthed in france, the paint was preserved by the dirt, last i saw was some areas already cleaned up and the base was yellow and some green, but there is still doubt over any other colors used in the camo...
keep it up guys i'd like more from y'all. stug

Stug, if you're building the kit for yourself to be placed on a shelf in your abode, build and paint it as you would like. If you plan on entering said vehicle in a contest or showing it at a club meeting with a non-standard paint scheme (does anyone really know what that would be?) be prepared to have judges or other harsh critic pick it apart.

IMHO, build to suit yourself. Heck, I've even seen M-47 Pattons in panzer grey with WW2 crosses on it (oblique reference to the movie "Battle of the Bulge").

Yep, the builder keeps saying he replicated the M-47 used by the film makers to portray German tanks. He's done well at several contests with that, especially if there's a theme relating to Holly wood or the movies.

Yes, this is true, but if you compare the King Tiger chassis #'s with werkstattkompanie & battalion records, you will no doubt find that the majority had the dunkelgelb equally visible. Then there's the King Tiger's with a single dunkelgelb base, and also in March 1945, due to the lack of dunkelgelb, the King Tiger's that were shipped directly from the factory to sPz.Abt.502, had the "red-oxide " anti-corrosive coating only......which the werkstattkompanie painted only green stripes and some brushed on dot's over.
Another thing that may be of interest to know is there were several different variants of the color known as DUNKELGELB that were used. I know of 4 of them, and am still trying to find the other 3.
...........I find the P51info quite interesting.

- ralph

JPTRR - You mis-read my note. The Panther in question had a camo pattern NOT in keeping with the often modeled "Ambush" pattern of panzer yellow with over spray of green and red brown with contracting splotches. It is true that black and white photography often leads to debates as to what the "right" color is. However, I will stick by my research on the subject and re-state for the record. The German Army returned to Panzer grey late '44/'45 especially with the Panther G. The Pershing target in the clip was painted with a dark on dark pattern. (You will not I did not identify the colors - just stated dark on dark)

I have to dissagree with with your idea that panzer grey was brought back at the end of the war...As stated elsewhere on this thread they did change over to red oxide primer as a base color for a while ,and then they changed again in November 1944 to use dark green as a base color .. So I think what we think is dark Grey could be either primer red or the dark green....From research done by Jentz and Doyle they have never come across anything saying that they returned to Panzer Grey ..As for the picture of the panther infront of the Church ,it is a panther A so was made way too early to be mixed up in this color debate ..I have seem color pictures of this tank and it is in a regular dark yellow and redbrown scheme...hth
Richard ....But then again have fun and paint it as you like ..it's only a hobby!!

Sorry fellas but thebear is right.
This is from years & years of research done by the extraordinary Tom Jentz
.........READ ON:

Following the order to drop Zimmerit in September 1944, Panzers left the assembly plants with a base coat of primer Rot RAL 8012 (dark red) with only about half of the surface covered with patches of Rotbraun (red-brown), Olivgruen (olive-green), or Dunklegelb (dark-yellow).

Finally, as initiated by orders dated November 1944 - but not to go into full effect until June 1945 - the Panzers were to receive a base coat of Dunkelgruen (RAL 6003). A camouflage pattern was to be created at the assembly plant by spraying on Rotbraun or Dunklegelb in sharp contours.

NOW - Can you tell me where this order is or where you found the reference claiming
there was a return to panzer grey ?
GOOD WORK BEAR ! .................AND A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL

- ralph

Hi Screamingeagle Ralph,

]


Really? Interesting. Did they have RAL numbers?

Model Master put(s) out three or four DAK yellows, "Afrika Braun", "Grau Braun", and others as I recall. Are you refering to them, or other ochre Continental colors?

Can you elaborate? Inquirying minds....

Hi Ralph,




So, are you saying that for a while that Pzrs rolled out half-n-half RAL8012 and the other three colors?

Again from what I have read there was only one Dunkelgleb....I have heard of vehicles that were supposed to go to Africa ending up on the eastern front ...I know the Magazine Steel Master did an article claiming more than one color ,but I'll stick with Jentz again on this one..Not saying that vehicles didn't recieve africakorp colors ....but were not applied at the factories . For the second part of your question if you read the quote it does say "OR" so I guess it could be more than 1 but probably not all ...

Rick (:-)

Here's a webpage with four different dunkelgelbs: http://aura.olomouc.com/ukazka_4en.htm
For what it's worth, since monitors don't display the precise shade of color accurately. But it's interesting

EEEHHHHHH.....Not sure ....just cause it is on here doesn't make it right you know ...Again like I say I will believe Jentz over alot of others ...What is really funny is there is not one of those chips that matches what I have seen of real dunkelgleb ...(Stug III at patton museum ) not to mention other equipement that I have seen pictures of. I go for a sandier color myself...mix of tamiya's xf 59 and xf60 but hey with all the weathering I could start with any color...lol

Rick (:-)