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To the younger modelers on Armorama...
staff_Jim
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2006 - 09:26 AM UTC
Hi guys and gals,
I know we have a lot of new blood on the site and that is a good thing. Armorama and it's members have always been interested in having a balance of all types of users. New modelers in particular are welcome to join the community and interact as much as they would like. We only ask a few small things...

1. Don't post simply to gain rank or as a cry for attention. Start and reply to topics when you feel moved to do so, but be wary of a flurry of postings that may damage your sincerity about the hobby.

2. Be sincere. This is a site for serious modelers as well as fun-loving hobbyists. Respect that fact and you will do fine. You may not be asked to show adults much respect in modern society, but you will be expected to do so here. If you don't like that fact just chalk it up to us being a bunch of old farts and find another site. :-)

3. Be ready to learn. If you aren't here to learn something then you probably aren't here for the right reasons. That is pretty much true for all ages and skill levels, but especially true for younger modelers. If you have been modeling since 5 that is great. I myself started at six and by 12 I still was awful. I didn't realize it at the time but I had a lot to learn.

4. Follow the lead of your peers. We have plenty of long-standing members of this community that are teens and now recently out of their teens. If you follow their example (for the most part) you will do fine.

5. if you don't know, ask, and if no one responds then ask me.

Happy Modeling!

Cheers,
Jim

PS: I did this for a school project when I was 15. It's about a 1/48th scale castle. The base was 3 x 3 feet I think. The drawbridge and doors worked as well.

CReading
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:35 PM UTC
Nice Castle Jim! Waiting, however for that P-40.
I concur with your 5 suggestions/rules. I believe the thread you locked had diminished.
I take note that the person who started it had not responded since last night....possibly sitting back and 'admiring' the flurry of postings he instigated.
I personally decided not to comment on the dio but really did not see anything horribly offensive in Jimbrae's post. I had no clue that the person was 14 years young if indeed he is (Maybe Finlandia was in your vocabulary at 14 but not mine) but none the less, if he posted the photos expecting feedback then he should have expected and accepted ALL feedback without the insulting, imature postings as a response.
I await the promised photos of the 'halftrack'

Good seeing you in Milpitas, glad you made it home safely,
Cheers,
Charles
Teacher
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:39 PM UTC
I couldn't agree more with you Jim. There have been several times I have wanted to post on topics, but have held back for fear of appearing to be having a 'downer' on our younger modellers. There are a few who constantly have to be reminded about patience, about showing anger.
Youngsters have to start somewhere, but unless they state their age in the actual topic that they want comments in, then they will be criticised as adults.

Vinnie
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:45 PM UTC
That sounds perfectly clear Jim; for ALL of us here on the site


Quoted Text

5. if you don't know, ask, and if no one responds then ask me.


Is it perhaps an idea to have a special forum for young and/or beginning modellers? A place where posted models etc. are discussed by other beginners and by some experienced modellers that are able to give constructive critics and suitable solutions by some kind of beginners-standards and where basic techniques are mentioned? Perhaps some basic FAQ area?
Just some thoughts...
markm
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 12:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That sounds perfectly clear Jim; for ALL of us here on the site


Quoted Text

5. if you don't know, ask, and if no one responds then ask me.


Is it perhaps an idea to have a special forum for young and/or beginning modellers? A place where posted models etc. are discussed by other beginners and by some experienced modellers that are able to give constructive critics and suitable solutions by some kind of beginners-standards and where basic techniques are mentioned? Perhaps some basic FAQ area?
Just some thoughts...


I agree with the possibility of a forum for beginners, I would be willing to help out in any way I could. I had been away from the hobby for about 20 years until it found me again last year. I am still re-developing my skills to be comfortable enough to post pics. With my age (40+) i still feel like a beginner. Wish I was still a teenager though---
lighthorse
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 12:23 AM UTC
Well said Jim

I too am a beginner and when the time comes to post a finished model i would expect honest encouraging comments including tips on how better to do things.

However, i am in my thirties and can handle negativities and critical analysis. An age indication in the user/author description would help.

Personally, i have come to acknowledge that some people have brutally honest personalities and some have encouraging personalities and have come to respect everyones views.

jlmurc
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 01:22 AM UTC
A very thoughtful and well put helpful set of guidelines Jim, which I am sure will assist all of us in our use of this family.

Regards,

John
airwarrior
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 01:49 AM UTC
I'm with some of the other reponses, a beginners forum would be a great idea, however, it has to be a BEGINNERS forum, not a "kiddie" forum where constructive critisiscim is frowned upon. I can't begin to tell you guys how many times I have heard, "Well, it's better than when I was 15..", and really, it does NOTHING for me. It has got to the point where it actually starts to get on my nerves. Also, age for me has no bearing on how good a model is, or isn't. The true measure is in years of experinece. take for example, a 15 year old kid builds a model. He's been building actively since he was 6, so it's reasonable to say he has 9 years of experience. Now, a 44 year old guy builds a model, and he's been building since he was 35. Again, 9 years of experience. Should the 15 year old kid merely be patted on the back, and then hope to improve?

stepping off the soap box...

p.s.I hope that makes at least a modicum of sense...
Clanky44
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:06 AM UTC
In my opinion the diorama posting and the following comments where really not the issue. What is concerning is the brewing animosity shown by members on this site towards other members. A greater effort has to be made to respect the members. We must not be so quick to anger and respond negatively to threads.

With this said, I feel that we should have our age shown, or possibly a secondary rank of skill and experience which would give others an idea on what type of advice to reply with. I sometimes do not offer advice to a posting, fearing that I'm being too general or too specific with my replies.
3442
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:18 AM UTC
I too agree a begineers forum would be ideal for new comers to show their work. I can understand it is frustrating for some to be critized so hard by others when they are new to the hobby, personally it gives me more reasons to work harder on the next build but were not all the same, and to agree with david, it should in no way be a "kiddie" forum, because age is not what matters most.

If the idea of a begineers forum apeals to you and you need someone to moderate it, i would gladly volunteer for duty because it would give me a chance to help out newbies like me.

Frank
GunTruck
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:21 AM UTC
This is an interesting thread, and makes me think. We've thought about the creation and usefulness of a Beginner's or Novice Forum since the site was created.

However, the greater good of the entire membership is always first and foremost in the minds of the Staff.

I understand what David (airwarrior) is saying - it doesn't come across as sincere as much as it does patronizing when one says "it looks better than mine when I was 15...". But, conversely, I must disagree with the equation of years of modeling experience with quality of modeling. Just because one has been at it nine weeks, nine months or nine years - a highly-skilled and competent modeler it does not make.

The problem, in my estimation , isn't that modelers aren't seeking honest appraisal of their efforts or that some don't couch commentary in gilded bags and are thought of as mean and gruff - it's that everyone wants to be accepted and respected for what they do and have accomplished.

If that statement above is true, and everyone is honest and candid with their feelings and can admit that - then there is no need for a Beginner's or Novice Forum. This is one of the central ideals Armorama was built around in the first place. This place and environment already exists - it's just that many have either forgotten or never discovered it. Armorama is THE Internet's Beginner's and Novice modeler's place to learn and grow. It's up to the membership of today, yesterday and tomorrow to build upon it...

Gunnie
airwarrior
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

But, conversely, I must disagree with the equation of years of modeling experience with quality of modeling. Just because one has been at it nine weeks, nine months or nine years - a highly-skilled and competent modeler it does not make.


Good point there Jim. When I said "The true measure is in years of experience..." I really meant "A truer measure..." I guess it didn't come off that way...
GunTruck
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Good point there Jim. When I said "The true measure is in years of experience..." I really meant "A truer measure..." I guess it didn't come off that way...


Aye! Just hang in there and keep on modeling! I appreciate you and all our membership here!

Gunnie
Spades
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:46 AM UTC
Good Post Subject Jim,

I concur with all your rules. I for one have definately learned from my peers. So this website has done alot for many members, pretty sure the young-uns will learn as well.
MMcLean
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:47 AM UTC
This is an interesting subject. As a "younger" modeler myself, I have to kind of wonder how other younger modelers interpret the way written words are typed as opposed to when in person. I'm not one to get offended easily, but some of the comments made my the original poster in that thread were certainly uncalled for( thats out of common sense and common courtesy to other people/nations/religions).


Quoted Text

Should the 15 year old kid merely be patted on the back, and then hope to improve?


I don't think just because the kids are "younger" that they should be given the pat of the back treatment. When I post my models in the forums, I want my kits to be critiqued as much as anyone elses, or how else am I going to improve.
Another example is like school, if a kid is doing bad, does the teacher pat him on the back and hand him/her a good grade just because they participated. No, the teacher gives them an honest grade and sometimes will critique there work to give them feedback on how to improve next time and maybe get a better grade.

Oh well, stepping off my soapbax for now.....

-Matt
Alpenflage
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:50 AM UTC
Jim, in my opinion, I think you (or another willing staff member) should create a "junior" forum. This way members who are younger will have their own spot, devoid of adult modellers. Have your set of 5 rules to make it simple, and thats that. It will help avoid future "flame-wars" resulting from a seemingly disrespectful younger member.

May I also suggest, when new members sign up, that they must show their age (or simple date of birth). This way if the person is, say under 18 years of age, they cannot post on the adult forums. This should include all other junior members as well.

Anytime there is an adult, who turns into a "troll" they are booted correct ? The same fate should fall on all trouble-maker members, regardless of age.

In regards to the junior post in the Diorama Forum, its a good idea that you put the clamp on further posts. Maybe delete some of the negative posts, or simply delete the entire post ?

Well enough of my soapbox chatter. Armorama is a great site, and I visit here often. We dont need a few individuals who dont know any better, ruin it for those who enjoy this site respectfully.

Cheers !!

Robert
airwarrior
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 04:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

May I also suggest, when new members sign up, that they must show their age (or simple date of birth). This way if the person is, say under 18 years of age, they cannot post on the adult forums. This should include all other junior members as well.


What do you think that will achieve? For one, most younger modelers don't have a strong basis on which to give constructive critisicm. You end up with no new members improving in skills, and nothing but dissapointment down the road say they may enter a contest, and get bashed for things they didn't know better to fix. Thier models will continue to be of poor quality, and they won't have the know-how to fix the problems in accuracy/building/painting. Second, that forum would have little, if any use. With the rate at which younger modelers use forums (very low) do you think the average t.v.-has-turned-thier-brains-to-mush-no-patience-having-instant-gratification-loving kid is going to stick around when it takes a week for any responses to a thread?
markm
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 04:15 AM UTC
I would suggest a new forum for beginners. I would hesitate to separate young from adult as some of the youngsters can turn out some great work. I find myself asking for advice from someone who is half my age sometimes anyway. You can have older members who are beginners or have just returned to the hobby after many years. The moderator or other members of that particular forum should be able to guage the skill level of the person submitting work or asking advice. There would not need to be any harsh criticism but purely constructive based on the skill level. I find myself learning more every day as I continue to look at others work and read kit reviews and so on. I do not beleive that there should be any type of age restrictions on any particular forum as that will upset people who may of had free access to everything before and rightfully so.
amhorne
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 04:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text


4. Follow the lead of your piers.


Actaully, the correct word is "peers" unless you have friends that are structral supports.
MMcLean
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 05:08 AM UTC
I think that blocking all members under 18 from posting in the "adult" forums would ruin some members experience here , including mine. I post my work to get critiqued and if I had to post in an only kids forum, I wouldnt be getting the help/criticism I want. I also am in this for the historical aspect. I love history especially WWII ETO history. There is not that much knowledge among younger folks, at least not to the technical aspect that I want/need for my building.

I agree that some younger members produce great works, I think myself included, and others just need that extra encouragement needed to get to that next level. If they can't take/ don't want harsh criticism , just put a little note in the top of the thread and then hopefully members will respect that. But when a younger member attacks another person/nation/religious group through the forums, to me thats stepping way over the line and you need to be dealt with. A lot of kids may think that it is ok to say that because its not affecting them, but its not. Its offensive and demeaning to cultures and people.

Ok, thats all I have for now. Stepping off my soapbox again.

-Matt
05Sultan
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 06:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I couldn't agree more with you Jim. There have been several times I have wanted to post on topics, but have held back for fear of appearing to be having a 'downer' on our younger modellers. There are a few who constantly have to be reminded about patience, about showing anger.
Youngsters have to start somewhere, but unless they state their age in the actual topic that they want comments in, then they will be criticised as adults.

Vinnie


Vinnie has hit it dead-bang.At 50,I talk differantly to Dave(Grumpy) than I would to a 10 year old.On any subject.Not patronizing,but more explanitive or in depth.If I don't ,then my response might be perceived as a 'blow off' or such.Grumpy,like me, would probably not think twice about it.It's all about peer perception I guess.
Nice topic Jim

Edit: We all went around about this on an earlier thread that concerned including the posters age with call sign particulars,etc. It just helps visualize who you are responding to in the net/web age.
-Rick
Alpenflage
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 06:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What do you think that will achieve?


David. To answer your question. First, I want to let you know that I was stating my opinion on the subject matter and I made a suggestion that was open for debate.

Second, I was responding to staff_Jim's post. This is his site, and he makes the ultimate ruling. Keep this in mind.

I do want to point out, that I personally have nothing against junior members here on Armorama. I was a young modeller once too, before there ever was an internet. So I know what its like in an adult modelling world and trying to learn how to improve modelling skills, while trying to fit in at the same time.

I belong to a local AMPS chapter, that meets once a month, and alot of the guys bring there kids to the meetings, and they have their own models to work on, right along with us adult members. Its great to see a younger generation getting into a hobby like this.

I have 2 young kids of my own. Hopefully, one of them will follow in dads footsteps, and get into modelling. Some nights, my older son, who is only 5, sits on my lap and checks out the tank models on Armorama, Track-Link, Missing Lynx, WW2modelmaker, and my own Nordland site. He loves it !

My whole point was suggesting to staff_Jim ways to solve a problem with junior members who acted out of line. I voiced my opinion, and thats where it will stay. That is the purpose of the forums to begin with.

Cheers !!

Alpen
05Sultan
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 07:02 AM UTC
Henk,I'm sorry but you have missed my point entirely.I will try again.At 50+ years old I have thicker skin than a 10 year old does.I've raised kids(mine and others).Egos are delicate in developement and bruise easy.Make the criticizm instructional and easy to understand from their viewpoint.Give it the depth that you or I wouldn't need,but they do.Doesn't need to be patronizing or condescending.Yeah,even good kids blow up and get upset once in a while and yeah, there are consequences for that.Never has been guarentees on growing up.
cheers for parental patience,it's a good thing......

boovoola
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 07:14 AM UTC
Well fellas,
I showed the original modeler's post and dio to my 16 year old nephew (also a modeler). Like me, he thinks it a gag.
He also asked me, "Who's Pimp?"
He says PMP is text message short for Pimp, Hip-Hop jargon for a player or, for lack of a better word, a con.
Don ?
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