Hello Chaps

I'm a figure modeller (most Polish Napoleonics) who also likes to make the occasional AFV (Polish of course) to break the monotony. In this respect, I recently purchased a 1/48th scale Sherman Firefly (1C) produced by an extremely well known Japanese manufacturer. My intentention was to build a small diorama showing a 1st Amd Div Firefly in action - Mt Ormel, Breda, the Swan or maybe even Willemshaven.

However, upon examining the kit in detail and comparing it with the multitude of photographs in my library I am at a complete loss as to what type of Firefly (ficticious or otherwise) is represented by this kit. Clearly it isn't the ever popular Firefly Vc (an obvious choice for kitting) but equally it isn't one of the early hybrid versions. Can anyone tell me which Firefly it is intended to represent?

Also, if I wanted to make a Vc using this kit, would it be a simple (?) task of cross kitting with one of the same manufacturers early hulled Shermans, or would I need to take more drastic measures? I am also in the market for separate Sherman tracks (in 1/48th scale) to clad my Firefly - are there any aftermarket manufacturers who are producing these tracks?

Please forgive my ignorance in certain areas. My main area of interest is of the four legged variety.

Many thanks

HippityHop

I assume you are referring to the Tamiya one. If so, then it is indeed a Ic Firefly. Nothing wrong about that. Some Ic were on the so-called hybrid hull, others on a "plain" m4 hull. It wasn't quite as common as the Vc, but it's not like only 6 were produced, either. If you really want to convert it into a Vc, it would need a LOT of work, as the A4 hull (Vc) was quite a bit longer than the M4 (Ic) hull. It would mean lengthening both the lower and upper hulls but in such a way that the bogies would be evenly spaced out (that is, you couldn't just add length at the end of the hull).

I don't work in 1/48th (1/35 in my case), but I'd advise against it, unless you feel the need to model a specific tank from a photo. I have a number of photos of this type of Ic in books like Fletcher's British Tanks of WW2 Vol 1 and 2 in the Concord Series and some other books as well.

If you feel the need to do a Vc from this (I have no idea if aftermarket companies yet make a conversion), the Osprey book on Modelling the Sherman tank might help, since they do such a conversion, but at the 1/35th scale. You might be able to apply a lot of what's in the article, but w/o aftermarket help, it would be tough.

Rob

One thing I forgot to mention. I don't know that the Poles used any of this type of firefly. My polish references are limited, but I've mostly just seen the Vc. I don't know that I even have any Ic Hybrid photos in Polish service photos. They did use the M4A1 76w, however, by 1945 (I'm building one now), so that's always an option as well. Not sure who, if anyone, makes one of these in 1/48.

Rob

This model represents the welded hull Sherman IC. This tank is similar to the much more numberous Sherman IC hybrid to which you refer. There are a couple of pics of the IC in this thread:

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/showthread.php?s=d1b1ed0025c4d56a6dfb37adcd48757c&threadid=3452

Britain had a number of them. Canada had a few as did the Czech armoured brigade. I haven't seen any in Polish service in any of my references, but I can't state catagorically whether they had any or not.

Currently there is only the resin M4A4 hull from Steve Faxon available in 1/48 scale if you want to do a Sherman VC (although there has been a Sherman VC rumoured from Skybow for some time now). The M4A4 hull is significanly longer than the M4 hull. You can see Mr Faxon's resin offerings here:

http://www.track48.com/model-pics/faxon/index-faxon.html

If you want to do a Sherman IC hybrid there is a resin hygrid hull available from Steve Faxon, and also a Sherman IC hybrid conversion for the Tamiya M4 kit available from Azimut. I think Great Models sells these.

As far as tracks go, the only ones currently available of a different type than the ones that come with the Tamiya kit are the Steel Chevron resin ones available from Track48:

http://www.track48.com/products-main-t48/index.html

I hope this helps.

Hi Karol

Here's a Polish Firefli Ic:

M4, Sherman Mk IC Firefly T 269727 "Bekas" Hybrid hull (w/o pp) 1st Sqn 52 1st Krechowiecki lancers, 2nd Polish Armoured Division Courtesy Ondra Rott

and another

M4, Sherman Mk IC Firefly T 269795 "Bestja" Hybrid hull 1st Sqn 52 1st Krechowiecki lancers, 2nd Polish Armoured Division

and another

M4, Sherman Mk IC Firefly "Bobr" 1st Sqn 52 1st Krechowiecki lancers, 2nd Polish Armoured Division

and ....

M4, Sherman Mk IC Firefly "Buzdygan" Hybrid hull 1st Sqn 52 1st Krechowiecki lancers, 2nd Polish Armoured Division

There are lots more also. Kevin T passed a listing of Polish vehicles on to me. If you would like a copy just PM me your email address and I'll send it on. You need Excel to run it or I could send it as a web file. Covers all know Polish Tanks etc by regiment.

Cheers

Al

Hobby Boss have just released one of these in their range of Shermans.
However, according to the reviews on the PMMS site, all the Shermans have problems with their shape, details etc (mosty different problems with each kit!). You could even try to find one of the old Bandai kits, not as detailed but at least the shape is better.

An M4 hybrid can not be done by cross-kitting the Tamiya kits. The M4A1 is the early small hatch version, the hybrid used the later large hatch front end.

Dear Al

That's excellant news.

Prior to today I'd only come across photos of hybird Fireflys (in II Korpus service, Italy) and of course the Vc (1st Amd Div, NW Europe) in Polish Army service - so I can breath a sigh of relief that my impluse buy wasn't a complete dud.

Thanks for all the other information on Shermans - it'll all come in very useful.

Cheers

Karol

Karol,

Like you I'm interested in building some Polish vehicles in 1/48. There isn't much out there for us right now.

Here's the deal with the Poles and the Ic

They used a bundle of them in Italy in 1945.
Of the plain vanilla hulled M4 Ic (like this kit) you can build the one which is perhaps best know "Rycerz I" from the 1945 Parade in Laretori (is that the name?)
with the large yellow lettering on the side.

Of course the Poles modified the hell out of all their tanks, so OOB won't do here. You'll want to get rid of the pistol port on the turret, and the applique cheek armor in this case was integrated into the original turret casting, so as to form a bulge.

Both those can be done simply. Here is the problem:

Rycerz I had a commander's copula which was like that on a Churchil. Good luck finding one in 1/48. If you can scratchbuild an example let me know and I'll buy it off you



You may be better off buying some of the conversion kits by Steve Faxon to build an M4A2, or M4A4 (which you can turn into the Vc), as there were many more of those in Polish service. Look here:

http://www.track48.com/model-pics/faxon/index-faxon.html


good luck and let me know what you decide to do. Right now I'm knee deep in some American M4s in 1/48, but I feel the urge to build something Polish and Canadian, so those are comming next. Too bad we're on our own with decals

Dear Born To Dig

Thanks for the references - very helpful.

I've just had a quick look in Osprey's (now very old) "Polish Armour 1939 - 45" which includes a small photograph from the Loreto parade in 1945. I also remember seeing other photos from this event in some Polish publications I have (about Gen. Anders), which also hint at some very interesting things. Notably, they appear to show a number of the more numerous Firfley Vc tanks and some hybrid hull Fireflies. The Firefly Ic are less obvious (perhaps because of their hull shape?). Your reference to the use of Churchill spare parts is very interesting and is perhaps something I may try and raise with some of my II Korpus friends who are (thankfully) still alive over here in the UK.

It's also interesting that Krzysztof Barbarski (the author of the above book) identifies Rycerz 1(crusader) as being a Vc. Again perhaps this demonstrates an inability to tell a Ic from Vc based purely on WW11 photos. From the little I know, unit histories are extremely non-specific as to the type of Firefly used - to the men doing the dirty work at the front these tanks were simply Fireflies end of story. Thinking about it; it makes some sort of sense that the 'early' Fireflies found their way to the Italian theatre whilst the Vc was more common in NW Europe. No doubt someone might be able to put me straight there?

Thanks again for the all the useful info - it will come in value.

Cheers

Karol

Hi Karol,

Here's a link to the Sikorski Museum in London. You might find some useful reference photographs there.

http://www.cultura.marche.it/cultura/mostraguerra/default_sik.asp?page=29&order=id%3F

Cheers

Al

Hi Karol,

I just completed the same kit you have. I am a total novice ( If you don't count building kits in my youth just to destroy them with firecrackers) and this kit was a lot of fun to build. It went together easy enough for a rookie like me but has enough detail that a person could make it incredible. Keep us posted on you progress!

-Derek

Chaps

This Firefly kit has given me a massive headache - even before I've used any glue or paint. However, I am encouraged by Derek's completed model, which I think is mighty fine.

I think that I've just a about reached a point where I have sufficient research material to start work on this beast - although, I must confess that I'm not 100% certain.

At this point I have to send a big thank you to Al; the Polish vehicle list you sent me will be extremely helpful. It also reminded me of a helpful little booklet, which I bought just over ten years ago - "Polskie Pojazdy Wojskowe 1939 - 1945" (Polish Army Vehicles) published by well known decal manufacturers Intech. Unfortunately, the book's photographs and colour drawings don't provide a huge amount of additional information on this mark of Firefly or the features unique to Polish vehicles but the booklet does contain some nice decals at 1/72nd and 1/35th, which I'll use as a basis for handpainting markings onto my Firefly. Hooray - some minor progress.

As an aside, Borntodig; I've studied the few available photographs of Rycerz 1 (at the Loreto parade) and there is certainly an unusual commander's cupola arrangement visible on this particular vehicle. However, I'm not 100% certain about the use of a Churchill hatch/ cupola. As far as I'm aware (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the Polish II Korpus never used the Churchill in Italy. Of course that doesn't mean an awful lot as unit workshops were notorious for their ingenuity when in the field. It's just that I have my doubts. Also, and this is a heartbreaker, Rycerz I doesn't appear to have the shell hatch on the left hand side of the turret. This is infuriating as in all other respects the photographs of Rycerz I appear to show a Firefly Ic. Indeed, the Intech book mentioned above also concurs with Al's list by identifying Rycerz I as a Firefly Ic (or as they rather pedantically describe it a Sherman M4 (76.2 mm)). Who's correct?

As with most of the models (I include my figures) I make, I suspect that this Firefly will end up a compromise - I'll try and get it 80% accurate at least and leave it at that. I hope to post finished pictures on here before Christmas (2006). Thinking ahead, my next Firefly (and there WILL be another one) will have to be one of the more recognisable models (hybrid hull or Vc) and in 1/35th. The research for this model (the Ic)has thrown up plenty of reference material on these machines. Typical!

Cheers

Karol

British all around vision cupolas were definitely used on Polish Sherman Fireflies and is the only way to explain the features visible in the well-known photo of Rycerz 1 (as seen in Heyward for instance). There's no sign of the usual Sherman split commander's hatch and there is a definite projection in front of the commander which can only be the hatch of a vision cupola - the later mark which opened out flat. And there is no pistol port on the turret side either. Missing Links a while ago had further photos of the Polish Sherman Fireflies taken before the Loretto parade, which may have come from the Pathe site.

David