_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Abrams' M240 & Mount Questions
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 12:14 PM UTC
Hi Guys, photo and info request please..

Photos specifically of the Underside of the M240 Itself..for both the Original version and Infantry versions used on the Abrams as in photos :

[Have there been any changes, visually that is...to the Original M240 version for the Abrams since OIF started?]









And

Photos for the M240's Gun Cradle and Lower Cradle ... Individually / Not Attached like in the photo below :

[ Also, what's the correct name for both cradles? And what's the purpose of the lower cradle?]





Lastly, is this version with the Spade Grip being used on US AFVs?




MANY THANKS
TankSGT
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: July 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 946 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 05:48 PM UTC
I had a nice response already typed in and google spell check lost it. Well I'll try again the second M240 in the post looks like the weapon with the dismount kit. The tank doesn't get another MG but a pistol grip, barrel with bipod and a butt stock to use the loaders MG on dismounted missions, such as OP or patrols.

The lower cradle is a brass catcher for the empty shell casings and links. The way the weapon is mounted would rain spent brass inside the tank which could cause a hazard to the crew. It pulls out to be dumped. If it gets full it can cause a stoppage. I'll consult my old TM to get the noun and nomeclature for you.

The gun with the spade grips I haven't seen before. It might be for door guns on Blackhawks replacing the old M60D.

Tom
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 06:40 PM UTC
Thomas thank you for your reply.

Yes I know about the Dismount kit, and added handguard to the barrel area of M240....But you've anwered a question that I didn't think about asking or forgot if I had asked before.. Now I know, that there's 1 MG per tank ..and the rest of the parts added for dismount situations..Thanks.

Forgive me if I sound duhhh now...But can you list under what conditions would the crew and which of them dismount..with weapons of course..!?

I've looked at some of my pics again...now i see how the shells gets deflected into the brass catcher.. Thanks..
Looking forward to your TM.


Does anyone have photos showing the MG being fed it's 7.62 rounds? I also hope that someone will be abled to post photos of the underside I asked for....it will really help in improving on my AM kits...as I have cannibalised and re-worked the M240 parts from Dragon's AIM kit...for more accuracy


The MG with Spade grips are used on the Seahawk as well..I can't remember where I found the info and pic but I vaguely remember that this version is also used by US ground forces..so I wanted a confirmation from you guys.



Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 07:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Does anyone have photos showing the MG being fed it's 7.62 rounds?



What about these ? (sorry no Abrams M240 ) From Combatindex





HTH
Frenchy
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 08:16 PM UTC
Hey Frenchy ..So you're always lurking around the forum huh :-)
Thanks man! They're what I need. I have the 3rd pic but only a small one..now I can see it's the one with the Spade grip...


Now if only someone can post some under-belly pics of the MGs..
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 08:24 PM UTC
The version with the spade grips replaced the M60D used in door guns on helicopters.
FatMike
Visit this Community
Illinois, United States
Joined: September 11, 2006
KitMaker: 106 posts
Armorama: 107 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 08:27 PM UTC
One thing that you may notice on some tanks is that the loaders will KEEP the M240 Bravo (dismount kit) on their M240's, they do this by only locking the fromt pin into the mount, leaving the back pin out and locking the mount into the "gun raised" position. (I have a pic of a friends tank using the 240 like this, I will post it when I get home) When they do this they will fire the MG like it is in a HUMVEE mount rather than using the butterlfy. Also when they do this, the Bi-Pod will be in the down position, as it will not fit into the mount if it is stowed.

Another thing, is that you will see the spent brass catch (what you have listed as lower cradle) will be removed, some crews do this so that the MG will not get jammed if the brass catch fills up (and they do tend to fill rather fast in a firefight). The spent cases will just fall where ever though and it is a pain in the ass cleaning out the spent cases from the turret and sub turret.

As far as the bottom of the M240 its pretty basic, just a flat piece of metal, then a hole where it ejects the brass from the bottom of the MG. It pretty much looks like the bottom of the .50 cal. I don't think I have any pics of this, never really thought about taking any. I can try to get one or two the next time we have gunnery here in a couple of weeks.

There are 2 M240's on a tank, but one is the coax, if something goes wrong with the coax, the crew will pull the loaders M240 to use as the coax. Feel free to email me or PM me if you have any special requests for pics or info.

you can send emails to [email protected]

Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 08:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey Frenchy ..So you're always lurking around the forum huh :-) ..


Even when I'm at work, I always manage to have a look here....

Frenchy
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 08:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The spent cases will just fall where ever though and it is a pain in the ass cleaning out the spent cases from the turret and sub turret.


I see what you mean .........


Frenchy
FatMike
Visit this Community
Illinois, United States
Joined: September 11, 2006
KitMaker: 106 posts
Armorama: 107 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 09:04 PM UTC
another thing that I forgot to mention, the heat guard (hand guard) will not be on the 240 when its in the loaders mount. Must of the time its a pain in the ass to try and work with, and the ones for the dismount kits are not in that good a shape, and tend to fall off. I rember there being a problem with them fitting into the mount also. But that was only on some tanks. (could have been that the crews just didn't use them)

The charging handle also does not change, it stays as a looped over cable.
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 09:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The version with the spade grips replaced the M60D used in door guns on helicopters.



I didn't know that. Thanks Robin.
It's a very simple conversion to make, too bad I'm only concerntrating on AFVs for now...but it gives me ideas.




Quoted Text

One thing that you may notice on some tanks is that the loaders will KEEP the M240 Bravo (dismount kit) on their M240's, they do this by only locking the fromt pin into the mount, leaving the back pin out and locking the mount into the "gun raised" position. (I have a pic of a friends tank using the 240 like this, I will post it when I get home) When they do this they will fire the MG like it is in a HUMVEE mount rather than using the butterlfy. Also when they do this, the Bi-Pod will be in the down position, as it will not fit into the mount if it is stowed.



Excellent. Thank you that adds another option for my AM kits... Yes please send me the photo [email protected]
..what the heck is a butterfly?:p the whole weapon,cradle,etc contraption?



Quoted Text

Another thing, is that you will see the spent brass catch (what you have listed as lower cradle) will be removed, some crews do this so that the MG will not get jammed if the brass catch fills up (and they do tend to fill rather fast in a firefight). The spent cases will just fall where ever though and it is a pain in the ass cleaning out the spent cases from the turret and sub turret.



Seen this and it's also an option I'd like to include in the set I will release, though I've only a handfull of pics-which aren't too clear..
I've just completed cutting up the "brass catcher" and weapon "cradle"
( waiting for Thomas to give me the proper names) from dragon's AIM kit..it's an excellent kit but like every kit there's always room for improvement..anyhow I took off alot of excess plastic and the overall shape for the weapon's cradle looks correct now. I've to build the underside now..then I'll be cutting up the M240 itself..

BTW in case you haven't seen my post https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/75248#629051




Quoted Text

As far as the bottom of the M240 its pretty basic, just a flat piece of metal, then a hole where it ejects the brass from the bottom of the MG. It pretty much looks like the bottom of the .50 cal. I don't think I have any pics of this, never really thought about taking any. I can try to get one or two the next time we have gunnery here in a couple of weeks.



The detail pics I have are mainly from prime portal and some other popular walkarounds..
I will certainly appreciate if you could get those "belly" pics,..I'm working on my kits so that they come in parts as with the weapon/s variants, weapon's cradle, brass catcher, and mount bracket...It would be a shame if we couldn't have the option of building the M240,etc with the brass catcher removed.



Quoted Text

There are 2 M240's on a tank, but one is the coax, if something goes wrong with the coax, the crew will pull the loaders M240 to use as the coax. Feel free to email me or PM me if you have any special requests for pics or info.



Huh?! Is that obvious from the outside? I'll certainly email you shortly! Thanks Michael
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 09:23 PM UTC
Frenchy, please spend more time at work... :-) That's a good pic




Quoted Text

another thing that I forgot to mention, the heat guard (hand guard) will not be on the 240 when its in the loaders mount. Must of the time its a pain in the ass to try and work with, and the ones for the dismount kits are not in that good a shape, and tend to fall off. I rember there being a problem with them fitting into the mount also. But that was only on some tanks. (could have been that the crews just didn't use them)

The charging handle also does not change, it stays as a looped over cable.



Anyone has a photo of the Hand Guard by itself? I may be able to get it done as as a separate piece in photo-etch.

What's "looped over cable"???
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 09:49 PM UTC
Guys, just a quick pic ..I've removed the locking pin areas and some other detail, will be building the "belly" of the gun cradle. As you can see I've thinned-out the plastic and did some shaping..

FatMike
Visit this Community
Illinois, United States
Joined: September 11, 2006
KitMaker: 106 posts
Armorama: 107 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 09:57 PM UTC
Here is one pic that I found of the M240 mounted on the tank with the Bravo Kit on it.



I found it in another forum. (the one that you linked to in your post) I will still get you the pics later tonight when I get home.

The looped over calbe, what the charging handle on the Gunners and Loaders 240 is. Its just a long cable that is looped at the end so you can grab it

No, you can't see the coax from the outside of the tank. I'm not really sure why I mentioned it, I think someone here at work was talking about it when I was writing that reply... sorry

the hand guards or heat shields as they may be called can be seen in one of the photo's on the first page.

**note** if you are still looking for pictures of the TUSK system, I may have a few at the house. We had an armor Symposium here a few months ago and a TUSK tank was here. I do have a flyer with an outline of all the systems on the TUSK. Email me and let me know.

Mike
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 10:31 PM UTC
Thank you, yes I have that pic, this tank is in works to represent my Resin kits for CSAMM and MG with bipod..in the near future.

I'm glad I made this post..gave me alot of refreshing looks at the photos I have.

Thanks for info about the coax and MG replacing it..Always good to learn something new.

Please note the time difference if I don't reply immediately..it's 1am here. Thanks


This was the initial test for the CSAMM's ammo can using photoetch for the latch/lock for the cover. But I'm still pondering if I should go full resin instead...as it would be pretty annoying to assemble and.. I would be cushing if I dropped it for the carpet monsters.

Suggestions/ Preferences ?





As you can see, she's still needs lots of dressing
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2006 - 10:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

**note** if you are still looking for pictures of the TUSK system, I may have a few at the house. We had an armor Symposium here a few months ago and a TUSK tank was here. I do have a flyer with an outline of all the systems on the TUSK. Email me and let me know.




Thanks I'm always looking! I'll email you shortly
FatMike
Visit this Community
Illinois, United States
Joined: September 11, 2006
KitMaker: 106 posts
Armorama: 107 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 01:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text



This was the initial test for the CSAMM's ammo can using photoetch for the latch/lock for the cover. But I'm still pondering if I should go full resin instead...as it would be pretty annoying to assemble and.. I would be cushing if I dropped it for the carpet monsters.

Suggestions/ Preferences ?



I think that if done right the resin would work better. It'll be a lot stronger, and not as touchy to put together. Though with the PE you could make it look maybe more realistic, i.e having the ammo can half empty. I'm not really sure how you could get a more natural lay of the ammo though, resin is too stiff, and I think PE is too thin looking and unrealistic b/c you don't have that thickness of the rounds. So there is an issue also to take a look at.
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 08:41 AM UTC
Thanks for your input.

I'll be cheaper to produce and easier to assemble if the ammo can is done in resin, it can be done thin enough..I have not found a reliable photoetch resource yet...but we'll see..I still need one.

Anyhow as I think most of us will not display an empty ammo can..at least not for the CSAMM..so I will fill it 1/2 or 3/4 with a belt of .50 cal rounds feeding into the .5.
This ammo will be cast from the rounds and belt I'm working on. And you'll have spent resin rounds to throw about the hull of your tank.

The option modelers will have is to close the cover or have it open hanging forward against the ammo can. Either way the rounds will be visible since the cover is only mearnt to stop the belt from flying off during firing.

FatMike
Visit this Community
Illinois, United States
Joined: September 11, 2006
KitMaker: 106 posts
Armorama: 107 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 08:03 PM UTC
I have a bunch of pics of the CSAMM system if you want them. I have some good ones of the ammo box, the mounting system and the cables that come off of it. Just drop me an email. I'll send them out to you.
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 08:24 PM UTC
Michael, Yes please send me the pics...

I just emailed you ..not sure if you got my previous mail..

Thanks
FatMike
Visit this Community
Illinois, United States
Joined: September 11, 2006
KitMaker: 106 posts
Armorama: 107 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 08:40 PM UTC
I didn't get one from you yesterday, sometimes its slow, I'll be home early today and reply ASAP.

I have pics of 2 different ammo boxes for the CSAMM also.
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 10:11 PM UTC
That's strange..OK looking forward to the pics....

Talking about 2 types of ammo boxes for the CSAMM...the training version with 200 rounds is pretty nice but I doubt anyone would want to depict an Abrams in training..
AngryDog
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: March 27, 2004
KitMaker: 1,114 posts
Armorama: 900 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 11:13 PM UTC
Here's the training version




A little update on progress...besides shaping ..I added the deflector for the spent rounds to fall into the "brass catcher"-....Shells fall though the rectangular area- which I did not open for ease of molding and casting process...Modelers will have to cut through this area if they intend to display it without the MG mounted..or brass catcher removed as in the photo.

There's also work to do for the guns, and I will scratch the mount bracket and add the missing details... I think if I'm precise enough..it will be movable even though as a resin version.

Comments are always welcome..




Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 11:19 PM UTC
Keep on the good work Nick ! The modified M240 mount looks fine to me...

Have you receive the last batch of pics I've sent you this afternoon ?

Frenchy
FatMike
Visit this Community
Illinois, United States
Joined: September 11, 2006
KitMaker: 106 posts
Armorama: 107 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 11:29 PM UTC
It looks really good, I just have one question? When will be be able to get ome of them?

They also use the training ammo boxes in combat. We all like having the extra ammo.
 _GOTOTOP