Hello,

I have questions about the pak 43 neuntoter. If fired from its bogies it had a limited traverse of 30º to either side.
Can anyone tell me when it was fired while still on its bogies if the outrigers on the side are supposed to be deployed? If so where the "supports" in the red circle used for this, to bridge the larger ground clearance?
If not what are these "supports" used for?
I ask this because these "supports are actually longer than the gap to be bridged so they are not at a 90º angle to the ground. And I can't find pictures of the gun being fired from its bogies.

Regards,
Pascal

Anyone please?

Hi Pascal,

Sorry can not help with your question, but I'm interested in any answers as I have the 'ACE' 1/72 kit in my stash to build.

Ciao
Luciano

hey,
maybe this will help you.this is from my orignal WWII U.S.manuel on German weapons

88-MM ANTITANK GUN (8.8 cm Pak 43). (1) General description. The 8.8 cm Pak 43 is an electrically fired, semiautomatic gun on a two-bogie cruciform mount. It may be fired from its wheels if the direction of fire is within 30 degrees of the longitudinal girders, but must be fired with its platform on the ground when used in an artillery role. With platform down, the top of the shield is only 5 feet 6 7/8 inches high. An automatic firing cut-out restricts elevation when firing over the legs to 12 degrees on early mounts and 16 degrees on later mounts. The 8.8 cm Pak 43 is ballistically identical with the 8.8 cm Pak 43/41.

Characteristics.

Caliber . . . . . 88 mm (3.45 inches).
Length of tube . . . . . 21 feet 7.25 inches.
Weight in action . . . . . 8,000 pounds.
Muzzle velocity (HE) . . . . . 2,460 feet per second.
Muzzle velocity (APCBC) . . . . . 3,280 feet per second.
Muzzle velocity (AP40) . . . . . 3,705 feet per second.
Traverse . . . . . 360°.
Elevation . . . . . -8° to +40°.
Traction . . . . . Tractor.

Ammunition. Weight of projectiles fired from this gun are: HE, 20.68 pounds; APCBC, 22 pounds, and 22.36 pounds; AP 40, 16 pounds; Hollow charge, 16.8 pounds. At 1,500 yards, the APCBC and AP 40 projectiles will penetrate approximately 130 mm (5.12 inches) of homogeneous armor plate at 30 degrees from normal.

Hi,

Not the answers I was looking for but thanks for the replies anyway.
I have the osprey book about 88mm FLAK and PAK http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php?title=S3411&ser=NVG it also gives the descriptions you mention Flakgunner. But unfortunately it does not answer my question.

And Luciano, the reason for my asking the question, besides that I'm curious, is that I am building the Ace kit at the moment. And I can tell you this is my first limited run kit, but I'm very pleased with the kit. It builds very good out of the box. Never the less, I did replace the extra extention on the gunner side of the gun shield with a thinner piece of plastic. During building I decided to have it in the firing position on its bogies, but ran into trouble, resulting in my question above. Because the instructions only have pictures of the gun either in traveling mode or on its crucifix on the ground.

Regards,
Pascal

Thank you Pascal for the build info.

Do you have photos of your build?

I will not be building mine till next year as I have a load on at the moment getting ready for a show in November then a campaign in the wet and salty section of the site and also a build for my local club.

Phew.....

Ciao
Luciano

Hi Luciano,

Usually I take pictures of my builds. And I wasn't planning on building this kit until next year because I'm in the middle of two other projects. But I couldn't resist doing a quick almost out of the box kit. I have for no apparent reason taken no pictures of this one. I will take some coming week and post them here. But do not expect to much from these pictures because judging from your previous post you can probably do a much beter job on this kit than I.

Regards,
Pascal

Pascal:

I know nothing about this weapon, but let me quote from the encyclopedic book by Chamberlain, Doyle and Gander, "Deutsche Panzerabwehr 1916-1918 & 1930-1945" (subtitled: " German Anti-Tank Weapons Illustrated"). The entry for the Pak 43 says:

"The gun could be fired from its wheels without extending the side legs, if the direction of fire did not exceed 30 degrees either side of the longitudinal girders. If the direction of fire was greater than 30 degrees, the side legs were extended and the pads brought firmly in contact with the ground."

I hope that this is the information that you were looking for.

Dave

hey pascal,
the only large german gun that i'am aware of ,that can be fired in all 360 degrees without having to be removed from it's bogie's is the 8.8cm Flak 41,when fired from the sides the outriggers,need to be extended,touching the ground,which they will. The Flak 18,36,37 can be fired from the front or rear only,while on thier bogie's, My understanding is that the Pak 43 can only be fired in the front positon ,30 degrees ethier way,while on it's bogies,thier outriggers ,like those of the Flak 18,36,37,won't reach the ground from thier bogies,they dont go beyond 0 degrees, The Pak 43,firing in this foward postion,didn't need to extend thier outriggers ,the weapon was stable enough,on their bogie's,plus you had the weight of the vehicle towing it,for extra stability,I'am not sure,but i don't believe you can extend the arms,without removing the bogies,they'll hit the wheels

Joe

Dave and Joe,

Thank you very much for the answers it is exactly the answer I was looking for. I knew about its limited traverse to 30º, but I was unclear about the use of the side arms. But this is clear enough.

Joe, on the pak 43 the arms can be extended while on its bogies. They are just short enough to go past the wheels and they have to be extended before lowering the gun. It would seem to be prudent to me otherwise the gun could fall over if the bogies are removed.

That only leaves the question what the "support" braces on the side arms are for that are in the red circle in the picture above. If they are not used to fire the gun from its bogies using the side arms than what are they for?

Regards,
Pascal

Hi Pascal:
I recall seeing a wartime photo of those extensions folded downwards -- they would allow the outrigger arms to be braced against the ground (I don't recall where I saw it but my reaction was:"Oh, there they are!"). Also, if you look at how they are mounted (to the outrigger "foot pad"), and how it it designed -- then the ability to fold it down to allow stability while still attached to the SdAnh 204 bogies is the only reasonable hypothesis.

Also, I need to counter Joe's claim about the 8.8cm Flak 41. Its outrigger arms folded horizontally like the 8.8cm Pak 43. If it had the ability to fire while still attached to its trailers, it isn't obvious to me how it was done. Here is my 8.8cm Flak 41 model:

Roy - that is a REALLY nice Flak 41.

I am starting the new 1/48 Pak 43 just released by Verlinden (a redux of the 1/35 version), and looking at those parts they seem designed to be flipped down to level and brace the carriage on uneven ground (they would sink in because they have such a small surface area). They do not look like they would reach the ground from the cross-legs if they were flipped down while the carriage was still on the bogies. Looking at Hoagg’s book last night I sounds like the prime mover would have carried dedicated blocking to support the cross legs when extended for firing off the bogies.

Konrad

Hi Roy,

Thanks for your input.
Very nice model, that's definitely not an out of the box project and a very clean build.

Luciano,

Here are some photos of the PAK 43 I'm building. They are not of a very good quality, I'm still trying to get the hang of that and the white plastic is not helping either. Bigger versions can be seen in "MY PHOTOS".



As you can see in the first picture the wheels don't touch the ground when the supports are down. In the other two pictures the gun is shown as I am going to finish it. I tried to make a groove down the middle of the rubber wheel, but that experiment failed. So I puttied it up and rather have it without the groove than with a sorry looking one. It's not a very clean build as it is.
One more thing, as you can see in the pictures it does need some putty for the sinkholes on the arms of the crucifix.

Regards,
Pascal

Hi Pascal,

Thats looking good, makes me want to start mine.
Keep up the good work, can not wait to see paint on it.

Ciao
Luciano

Pascal: I think I know your problem. When you swing down the extensions, they lift the wheels of the tractor off the ground. OK. The problem I see is that the "foot pads" on which the extenders are attached should be mounted higher and more flush with the outrigger. I'm still convinced that the extensions are supposed to operate in this way.

Cut off the foot pads, remove the mounting stub and glue them flush with the outrigger arms to decrease the overall "height"

Hi Roy,

That is the problem and I agree with you about the supports, but I've thought about it and I think I'm going to finish it with the outriggers in. Apparently it does not need the outriggers to fire from the bogies as long as it stays inside the 30º traverse. Although it looks cool with the arms out, it would be more realistic not to use them. As if the gun is fired at a target of opportunity.

Cheers,
Pascal

Luciano,

Yesterday while priming the model I noticed two holes in the crucifix (see red circle in picture below). These are for pins to hold the outriggers in place during traveling or deployment. Don't forget to insert these pins or at least cover the holes with a disc. It looks strange without this.


Just thought I'd mention it. Sorry for the bad photo, but when you look at the kit part you'll know what I mean.

Regards,
Pascal

Thanks Pacal will keep that in mind when I get around to building mine.

Building some wingy things (1/144) 2 x F-14 Tomcats, 1 x Mig-21 and 1 x F-20 Tigershark at the moment, while finishing off the E-100 and Puma (1/72). Then I have about 6 1/72 armour waiting in the to be finished pile. As well as a salty project for the Leyte Gulf campaign. Need to get those done.

Ciao
Luciano

Roy and Pascal:

You guys are right. Looking at the images, I do see that the supports could work the way you suggest. I think Roy's suggestion would fix the jacking problem as well.

Pascal's build is moving along nicely - now I have to find time to work on my 1/48 version.

Any ideas where I could get drawings, as I would like to scratch the wheeled carraiges, Verlinden only did the gun.

Konrad

I don't know about drawings but I know that Cromwell Models just released the full Pak 43 and the SdAnh 204 trailers in 1/35 resin.

I hear that the odd 1/35 Alan plastic injection Pak 43 has the SdAnh 204 trailers too.

Thanks Roy - I will look for images/samples of those kits.

Konrad

Hi,

Small update on the progress.

I'm not sure about the MP, I might not put a figure in there at all. The sign is going to say "boobytrap".

It still needs weathering as you can see. An the sticks in the back are a start for the hedge that is going to be there.

Cheers,
Pascal

Pascal,

Looking good.... keep up the good work

Ciao
Luciano

Thanks Luciano,

Here is another update:
The gun is now stuck to the base plate and needs to be "dirtied up" so it blends beter with the ground work. Also I decided to add the figure, only I gave it new arms and a pot of paint to hold. The brush gets it hairs after the figure has been finished.



Cheers,
Pascal

Luciano,

Here is the finished thing:



Hope you like it. Please post some pictures when you get around to building yours.

Regards,
Pascal