Do they still uses the follow equipment?
- Chaparral
- Vulcan over an M113
- Sgt. York AA system
Thanks!
Marcelo
Hosted by Darren Baker
Curiosity question on US ARMY
Urutu_
Joined: April 21, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 05:09 PM UTC
HeavyArty
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Posted: Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 06:19 PM UTC
Sorry. no to all. The SGT York was only an experimental vehicle and never went into full prouction. The Chaparrel and M163 Vulcan were both retired in the mid '90s. Currently, there is no tracked US ADA system. The M6 Linebacker (Bradley chasis ADA system) was retired last year as well. The US Army only uses the HMMWV Avenger and the Patriot for ADA now.
Urutu_
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Posted: Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 07:06 PM UTC
Thanks Gino!
I was just curious
Bye,
Marcelo
I was just curious
Bye,
Marcelo
USArmy2534
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Posted: Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 07:44 PM UTC
I didn't know they retired the Linebacker. I have a few ideas, but was there a specific reason given?
Jeff
Jeff
HeavyArty
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Posted: Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 08:02 PM UTC
The ADA is a shrinking branch. With the Army moving to modular BDEs, there will no longer be an organic ADA Bn in the divisions. All ADA will be held at Corps level and farmed out as needed. Also, the ADA will have only 2 systems for the forseable future. The Avenger HMMWV is now the only tactical ShoRAD system and the Patriot is the only Theater ADA system. The BSFV and M6 Linebacker have both been abandoned.
Read more about them here. (About half way through the article.)
Read more about them here. (About half way through the article.)
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 11:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Basically has to do with air supremacy. There are hardly any potential enemy air forces left in the world that the USAF would not be able to keep in check.I didn't know they retired the Linebacker. I have a few ideas, but was there a specific reason given?
Jeff
jowady
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Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006 - 03:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The ADA is a shrinking branch. With the Army moving to modular BDEs, there will no longer be an organic ADA Bn in the divisions. All ADA will be held at Corps level and farmed out as needed. Also, the ADA will have only 2 systems for the forseable future. .)
They are working on THAADS and with increasing nuclear tension it might get a big push. Having said that though it appears that the ADA may disappear entirely, with the Army's push to "combined fires." Sometime in the next few years, the Air Defense school will move from Bliss to Sill, despite the fact that Sill's ranges can't handle a Stinger launch sfaely, and units will still have to be sent to Bliss for training and live fires. Our tax dollars at work!
John
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006 - 04:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Same issue in sending the Armor School to Ft. Benning. They do not have the ranges or physical space required to conduct the amount of gunneries the Armor School conducts for enlisted and officer training. Ft. Knox has some of the Army's premier Multi-Purpose Range Complexes (MPRC) and one of the best MOUT sites in our country, but they are still moving the Armor Center to Benning.Quoted TextThe ADA is a shrinking branch. With the Army moving to modular BDEs, there will no longer be an organic ADA Bn in the divisions. All ADA will be held at Corps level and farmed out as needed. Also, the ADA will have only 2 systems for the forseable future. .)
They are working on THAADS and with increasing nuclear tension it might get a big push. Having said that though it appears that the ADA may disappear entirely, with the Army's push to "combined fires." Sometime in the next few years, the Air Defense school will move from Bliss to Sill, despite the fact that Sill's ranges can't handle a Stinger launch sfaely, and units will still have to be sent to Bliss for training and live fires. Our tax dollars at work!
John
USArmy2534
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Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006 - 07:48 PM UTC
Is there any plan to expand Sill or Benning?
Thanks for the answers, you confirmed what I was thinking.
Jeff
Thanks for the answers, you confirmed what I was thinking.
Jeff
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006 - 07:55 PM UTC
Yes, there is a plan to expand the ranges at Ft. Benning. The Armor Center will move there by 2010 (or around then). I believe Benning has to do an environmental impact study before they can begin construction.
1st Armor Division is moving to Ft. Bliss to fill the void left by the departure of the ADA school. I've never been to Sill and don't know what changes they will go through to receive the ADA school.
The combat arms are the last branches to consolidate. In the early 90s the combat service support schools consolidated at Ft. Lee. The combat support schools did the same thing in the late 90s at Leonard Wood.
1st Armor Division is moving to Ft. Bliss to fill the void left by the departure of the ADA school. I've never been to Sill and don't know what changes they will go through to receive the ADA school.
The combat arms are the last branches to consolidate. In the early 90s the combat service support schools consolidated at Ft. Lee. The combat support schools did the same thing in the late 90s at Leonard Wood.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006 - 11:24 PM UTC
Ft Sill has quite a bit of land and a pretty good range complex. Not sure what they will need to do for more school house space, but I am sure they will need some new buildings to support it though.
jowady
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 02:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Ft Sill has quite a bit of land and a pretty good range complex. Not sure what they will need to do for more school house space, but I am sure they will need some new buildings to support it though.
Ft Bliss, with its attendant ranges, McGregor and Dona Ana, as well as Biggs Army Airfield is roughly the size of the state of Rhode Island. Prior to 9/11, massive ADA exercises, called "Rolling Sands" were conducted there. These included airdrops by the ADA element of the 82nd AB, as well as ADA contingents from many NATO nations, including Holland, Germany and the UK. Air contingents included Luftwaffe tornados and Migs, USAF participation included everything up to and including B52s and B1s. Bliss is large enough (and empty enough) to allow aircraft to manuever supersonically.
Bliss also includes the Raketenschule of the Luftwaffe. Also located right next door are White Sands Missle Range, one of the primary development facities in the US, as well as Holloman AFB, designated as home to the new F22, and until recently home the F117 as well as still home to the advanced tactical fighter school of the Luftwaffe.
The Army still plans on sending all its ADA units here to live fire and train. Sill may be okay for the field arty, but it cannot conduct the manuevers for the ADA. Its going to take more than just a few new buildings.
John
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 03:06 AM UTC
All that may be true, but the ADA School is still moving there. The decision has apparently already been made. So be it.
jowady
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 03:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
All that may be true, but the ADA School is still moving there. The decision has apparently already been made. So be it.
Its the BRAC. Bliss is supposed to get 1st Armored. It just seems a waste, maybe Sill should get the 1st, and move the FA down to Bliss.
John
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 03:24 AM UTC
Sorry, that won't happen. Ft Sill is an older post and has always been the home of the Artillery. The ADA was broken out of the FA in the '70s and is finally coming home. It used to be that you could choose either Field Artillery or Air Defense Artillery after you went through the Basic Artillery School.
Tankrider
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 04:43 AM UTC
Gino,
Don't use the emotional "we are older, therefore we get to stay at Ft Sill", use the finaincial as well as available training area space arguements... More like the billions of dollars that it would cost to clear the Sill range areas to allow a maneuver unit to train. Bliss has a great maneuver box, less the environmental/archelogical "Degamo" (SP??) boxes which is great for BCT and lower maneuver. The The range complexes that John was speaking of are on the shoulders of this training area and are probaly not as dud laden as Sill's are.
If I was King for a Day, I would move the Armor & Infantry Schools to Bliss but extracting Infantry from Benning would be harder than making a Combined Mounted Maneuver Branch... I am glad this is happening after I have retired. :-)
John
Don't use the emotional "we are older, therefore we get to stay at Ft Sill", use the finaincial as well as available training area space arguements... More like the billions of dollars that it would cost to clear the Sill range areas to allow a maneuver unit to train. Bliss has a great maneuver box, less the environmental/archelogical "Degamo" (SP??) boxes which is great for BCT and lower maneuver. The The range complexes that John was speaking of are on the shoulders of this training area and are probaly not as dud laden as Sill's are.
If I was King for a Day, I would move the Armor & Infantry Schools to Bliss but extracting Infantry from Benning would be harder than making a Combined Mounted Maneuver Branch... I am glad this is happening after I have retired. :-)
John
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 06:12 AM UTC
John, you always have to be practical. I was mostly joking, but you do have to remember that the ADA was born out of the FA. Your financial arguments are good ones though. I don't see the issue with firing Stingers at Sill either. We fire MLRS there all the time on Quanah range.
sarge18
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 06:34 AM UTC
Ironically, the historical perspective WAS considered in some instances. Armor, at one point, in the form of 2AD, was stationed at Benning. And prior to the formal creation of the Armor branch, existed in a form of Infantry tanks (it also existed in the form of the mechanized Cavalry).
But, also considered was how well the local communities sold support. We know, factually, that Ft. Benning, as it exists today, cannot support the requisite training that Armor requires. Not in ground space or buildings, but specifically in range space, not only in the current use, but the potential rounds that will be used roughly 2014 (MERM) that will be used with Abrams and FCS chassis.
Columbus is sexier than Radcliff. I've had the joys of going to both places, and although I prefer Fort Knox, I prefer Columbus. And you can see how the local communities were able to "sell" that as part of a package.
The other posts affected no doubt had similar things that happened. When looking at the common sense aspect, one thing that has to happen to train Field Artillery is a clear airspace, with no competition. Listening to the discussion around Bliss, almost all of the airspace somehow has conflict (in an FA sense). Would really suck to have an expensive F22 shot down due to a practice artillery barrage.
I could grouse and complain, but ultimately, all of it's a done deal, and barring a revisit by Congress and the President, it's unstoppable. So, best to figure out how to turn the sour grapes into a good wine. It may take time, but you might be able to get drunk on it.
Jed
But, also considered was how well the local communities sold support. We know, factually, that Ft. Benning, as it exists today, cannot support the requisite training that Armor requires. Not in ground space or buildings, but specifically in range space, not only in the current use, but the potential rounds that will be used roughly 2014 (MERM) that will be used with Abrams and FCS chassis.
Columbus is sexier than Radcliff. I've had the joys of going to both places, and although I prefer Fort Knox, I prefer Columbus. And you can see how the local communities were able to "sell" that as part of a package.
The other posts affected no doubt had similar things that happened. When looking at the common sense aspect, one thing that has to happen to train Field Artillery is a clear airspace, with no competition. Listening to the discussion around Bliss, almost all of the airspace somehow has conflict (in an FA sense). Would really suck to have an expensive F22 shot down due to a practice artillery barrage.
I could grouse and complain, but ultimately, all of it's a done deal, and barring a revisit by Congress and the President, it's unstoppable. So, best to figure out how to turn the sour grapes into a good wine. It may take time, but you might be able to get drunk on it.
Jed
SmashedGlass
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 07:50 AM UTC
I was stationed at Bliss in the very early 90's with 3d ACR, and again with the Cav up here at Ft. Carson from 2001 to the present (well, I've been moved to the 'new' 2Bde/4ID but thats another story). And I have always had a raised eyebrow to the fact that they even moved the Cav FROM Bliss to Colorado in the first place. I seem to remember having unlimited manuever training area down there for anything from Platoon STX lanes up to Regimental excercises (reference: "roughly the size of R.I." haha). At Squadron, even perhaps Troop level there was the ability to plan training within the quarterly training schedule window, have it ok'd, and you could pretty much use any of that vast area to conduct manuevers; and the beauty of it was that for almost all of it all the unit(s) had to do was roll out the north side of Bliss and go go go for however long and far they were going to do it.
That was and is not the story up here at Carson. When I got here I was amazed at the fact that for anything beyond a Troop level excercise, and one solely conducted within restrictive layouts such as 'stick to road X and training range Y' the mechanized units had to railhead down to Pinon Canyon. No real room for force-on-force on Carson proper. And now, due to the BRAC, they move 3d ACR to Hood and all of 4ID to Carson??? That REALLY makes no sense, as the 4th is much larger than the ACR is.....My two cents on the subject
That was and is not the story up here at Carson. When I got here I was amazed at the fact that for anything beyond a Troop level excercise, and one solely conducted within restrictive layouts such as 'stick to road X and training range Y' the mechanized units had to railhead down to Pinon Canyon. No real room for force-on-force on Carson proper. And now, due to the BRAC, they move 3d ACR to Hood and all of 4ID to Carson??? That REALLY makes no sense, as the 4th is much larger than the ACR is.....My two cents on the subject
SmashedGlass
Joined: October 26, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 07:59 AM UTC
Oh yeah, hehe, back to the original topic of the thread....anyhow I was at Bliss when they "retired" the last of the M163 Vulcans and the Chaparrals. I remember the last of the Vulcans (only a handful, maybe 15 of them?) being parked in a fenced-in lot about 100 yards from the backyard of my house on base. I always thought they should've kept them as an anti-armor and area-denial weapon even if they didn't really pan out in their intended role. Ever seen video of them used that way? It's really impressive!!! IMHO, they would've been of great use in the base or point defense role in Iraq/Afghanistan.....who wants to attempt to rush something protected by 20mm @ 6000rnds/min???? 
jowady
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 08:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
John, you always have to be practical. I was mostly joking, but you do have to remember that the ADA was born out of the FA. Your financial arguments are good ones though. I don't see the issue with firing Stingers at Sill either. We fire MLRS there all the time on Quanah range.
I am being practical, the BRAC has ordained it, we must accept it. Still, the Army just got done redoing the ADA School here, now they're going to have to do it all over again at Sill. As for not firing Stingers at Sill, I think it is more of a target drone thing. Incidently, the idea that the ADA was only sent to Bliss in the seventies, posted by someone else and now its "going home" would be a surprise to my father, who served on 90mms and 120mm here in the forties. The ADA was not as far as I know part of the FA. The controlling body of the ADA was originally the Coast Artillery. AAA first came to Bliss in 1940, and the post has been the home to the ADA's missle program since 1946. My father gave me his WW2 collar brass, its Coast, not Field artillery.
John
jowady
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 09:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I
That was and is not the story up here at Carson. When I got here I was amazed at the fact that for anything beyond a Troop level excercise, and one solely conducted within restrictive layouts such as 'stick to road X and training range Y' the mechanized units had to railhead down to Pinon Canyon. No real room for force-on-force on Carson proper. And now, due to the BRAC, they move 3d ACR to Hood and all of 4ID to Carson??? That REALLY makes no sense, as the 4th is much larger than the ACR is.....My two cents on the subject
The 4th or the 5th ID was stationed at Carson in the sixties, and they always complained about a lack of manuever space. Bliss's manuever room is 550 sq miles, It allows for an aerial manuever space of of roughly 1500 square miles, and is the largest post in the army, some three times (at 1.12 million acres) larger than the NTC at Ft Irwin. Additional info can be found at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bliss
IndyCopper
Joined: March 16, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 05:56 PM UTC
First off, I realy enjoyed my time in the army, loved the life and the training and all the great budies. BUT, this thread is why I decided to get out. Some of the decisions made made by the "upper brass" is, in my opion, just plain stupid. Moving schools to locations where the troops cant properly train? Moving manuever units to new bases that dont allow for large unit exercises? Just wondering how much better the Army could do with a little common sense.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 06:06 PM UTC
The Army doesn't make these decisions, your Congressmen do. So don't blame the Army brass for these moves and consolidations. BRAC is controlled by Congress, mot the military.
trahe
Joined: April 03, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 06:34 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The Army doesn't make these decisions, your Congressmen do. So don't blame the Army brass for these moves and consolidations. BRAC is controlled by Congress, mot the military.
Gino is absolutely correct. You would also be surprised how much "horse-trading" by Congressmen goes on during the process...
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