lol

Kinda funny really! I was gonna get some pizza and beer tonight (no joke either)

Hello,

I'm a bit late to the discussion... I have a very busy week...
First of all, thank you for mentioning our article on field grey (http://www.losomatent.org/fieldgrey/ ). Indeed, one of our purposes with it was to show that FG comes in a great number of variations, and illustrating it with photos of real uniforms, and some examples of the interpretation of FG by figure painters. We believe that reading our work (even if we do not pretend to have the definitive word on the subject), can dispel some doubts, and put to rest some misconceptions.

Regarding the mixing of camo uniforms; mixing different garments with different camo patterns was fairly common. To begin with, W-SS helmet covers did not have the same range of patterns as the smocks, so mixing was unavoidable. Later on, new uniform types with new camo patters were introduced, as was Italian camo cloth; and older patterns continued in use. Wehrmacht troops used fewer camo patterns, and its use was less widespread (although this depends on the time, place and type of unit) so less mixing was forthcoming. In fact, at later stages of the war, it was intended to substitute all the camo patterns with a new one, which would have been issued to everybody: the Liebermuster pattern.

Combination of W-SS and WH camo material was certainly uncommon, as was the use by W-SS soldiers of WH camo and viceversa. The wide use of W-SS smocks and helmet covers by Hermann Goering LW units is an exception. But, apart of this, exchange of patterns was rare, as the scarcity of rellevant photographs show.

Another question... although it is true Heer units with M35 uniform used stone grey, trousers up to 1940, and that M1935 jackets had a dark green collar, this is not generally applicable to Waffen SS units. Early Waffen SS troops used their own pattern of FG uniform, which matching collar and trousers. Stone grey (or new-grey) trousers would be more common in officer's breeches, used in addition to FG examples. Use of stone grey trousers by enlisted men was very rare. As regarding to the dark green collar, it was adopted by W-SS in imitation of Heer regulations, but the field grey collars of their own regulations were commonly seen in the early times.

HTH,

Dani

HI DANI ..... I AGREE TOTALLY !
However your next quote ............................




...... I am not going to get into another long drawn out debate agin, but I DISAGREE HERE.
- Due to expansion of the Waffen SS in 1939 & formations of the new SS divisions, now saw that there were not enough SS tunic's to go around. ARMY ( WEHRMACHT HEER ) issue tunic's were therefore distributed to the new Waffen SS div's. Himmler was keen that his SS retain a distinctive style uniform and in 1939-40 he issued orders as to whom should wear what type of uniforms & how they should be worn BUT theses order were OFTEN IGNORED by the Waffen SS soldier themselves, and resulted in a mixed dress of staqndard Wehrmacht Heer & Waffen SS uniforms, and also personally tailored uniforms.
HERES THE THING: ...... From the French Campaign, the wearing of STANDARD HEER tunic's WAS COMMON THROUGH-OUT the Waffen SS. - ALL THROUGH THE WAR, THE UNIFORMS WERE ALTERED FOR BOTH THE HEER & THE WAFFEN SS ... MOSTLY DUE TO REASONS OF ECONOMY.

As for the dark green collars not being generally applicable fro Waffen SS ..... Well I have two words' for you ...... " DIG DEEP " ...... because from my past research & a good amount of photo's in ACCURATELY & THOROUGHLY WRITTEN book's I have on 1.SS Leibstandarte - 3.SS Totenkopf and 2.SS Das Reich, show these Waffen SS panzergrenadiers atttached to their respective Army's & Korps in 1940 France & early 1941 during their invasion through Russia with the dak green collared tunic's and they also can be seen under their "eichenlaub ' smocks !

NOW WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO YOU - you can come back with whatever you like, but these are the FACTS. I ain't even going to bother to comment on "the grey trouser thingy " but let me just say more a medium solid gray then stone grey ( aside from the field gray's ). ... I really have some modeling that I'm totally disregarding right now for this discussion, so I gotta get to it.

REGARDS

- ralph

Hi Dani and Ralph;

OK I have to disagree with Dani. Mollo in Volume 6 Waffen-SS Clothing and Equipment 1939-1945 states the early trousers replacing the Earth Gray uniforms were New Gray until 1939 when they were to be feldgrau. Beaver in Uniforms of the Waffen-SS makes no mention in the text of New Gray or Stone Gray trousers. But in captions to photos(Pp 164-165-Vol 1) mentions "question as to the color of SS trousers during the period 1939-1940".

Also Mollo comments on the Waffen-SS wishing to distance themselves from the political SS and become closer to the Heer in uniforms. And photos show the W-SS wearing the blue-green collar. So it is difficult to say that the Waffen-SS "strictly" wore their own uniform style.

PH

Mmmh...let's see.

First of all, I want to make some clarification. I didn't intend to mean that W-SS troops did not use the Heer style jacket, with dark green collar. When I say "this is not generally applicable to Waffen SS units", I mean that W-SS troops were not subjected exactly to the same regulations as Heer. Later on, I say "As regarding to the dark green collar, it was adopted by W-SS in imitation of Heer regulations, but the field grey collars of their own regulations were commonly seen in the early times"; by which I mean both styles (with and without dark green collars) concurred. In fact, at the early campaigns, there were in use original model 1936 W-SS uniforms (which were supposedly obsolete, and were to be substituted, by regulation, by the Army styles), model 1936 W-SS uniform tunics modified by the addition of dark green collars, and Army style uniforms . Waffen SS soldiers, in fact, liked to adopt Heer traditional uniform colour (as opposed to the particular SS "Erd Grau - Earth Gray" pre-war uniform colour) and styles (like the use of the darker coloured collar) because they understood it as a more prestigious choice, and in and effort to associate themselves with a "combat" entity, and dissociate from a "political" entity .

These are the ideas I wanted to convey, which are, of course, largely the same you have posted. I believe you have misinterpreted my words, deducing some absolute remarks which I believe are not in my posting. On the other hand, I admit I could possibly have avoided such an interpretation had I chosen more carefully my words, and maybe such an interpretation can indeed be drawn of my text. If so, I beg your pardon, and I hope this time I have expressed myself better. But we are on the same league as far as our present subject is concerned.

Regarding the "stone grey thingy", as you put it, the points I have expressed come from one of the latest references on SS uniforms, the 3-volume work by dr. Michael Beaver "Uniforms of the Waffen SS" (vol. 1, pgs. 209-210) I do not understand exactly what are you referring to. The main idea I wanted to assert was that use of trousers of a shade other than Field grey (that is, stone grey or new grey) was very uncommon among Waffen SS enlisted men; although trousers or breeches in stone grey, new grey, or other similar shades, were indeed used by officers, together with field grey ones.

Regards,

Dani

Hi Dani;

Maybe we are saying the same things. Look at my reference in Vol 1 and see what the photo caption says. I think it's not clear at all whether W-SS EM wore the gray trouser, but even Michael Beaver is not entirely sure one way or the other.

And I assume this is Dani A. I'm writing to??

PH

Have we wondered off the point here?????? #:-)

Paul,

I'm, indeed, Dani Alfonsea... we have met in other "battlegrounds"... And it would like we have a penchant for expensive references, too... (although I have to concede I enjoy this when the references are worth -to me, at least- the price).
As to the stone grey trousers, yes, even Beaver has to admit that telling the difference between FG trousers and SG trousers in wartime B/W photos is very difficult; he employs the word "subjective", which is certainly appropriate. In mono tone photos, one can not, usually, identify it it is a different grey or simply a different shade of the same basic colour.

BTW, admittedly we have wandered off the basic question, but I think that, actually, the subject has been evolving.

Best regards,

Dani

Hi Dani,
It's seem's with this 2nd posting of your's, that we can "agree - to agree ". Very well spoken
and quite different in text than the first. ..... Just for the record, I wasn't denying your ref's of the Waffen SS - FG tunic's with matching collar. I was just trying to show reference to how there was such a mix involved between the two. And that their were Army manufactured tunic's that circulated in the Waffen SS through the war, even though they became standardised and manufactured for the Waffen SS in factories ( actually, in concentration camps by slave labor ) ran by the SS WVHA.

Dani ..... you mention the three set book series by Michael Beaver. How does the 3rd book compare to the first two, militarily ?



One thing I'm pretty sure of : ...... I don't think the world will ever see such a broad diversity of uniforms and armor again in any military as there was with Germany 1936 - 1945. ( If I'm wrong, please correct me ).


REGARDS
- ralph

Ralph;

All three are worth having. I got mine off ebay as a set.

PH

Hello,

I agree with Paul. Although the last volume has some "less military" contents, so to put it, it still has very good coverage on camo uniforms and armoured troops uniforms, the 3 volumes make a very complete work. If you want more on camo uniforms, then "Camouflage uniforms of the Waffen SS", by Beaver and Borsarello, is a good addition.

HTH,

Dani

Ok, but what colour would you use for a German Infantryman uniform. I use a mix of 80% Model Master Feldgrau and 20% Model Master Panzer Olivegrun. I think it looks Ok for using it in figures in dio s. You can see the gunner in my photo of the Tiger I in the gallery.

Paul & Dani ....................... THANKS
I just needed to know about this more recent set Dani, I well acquainted with MB's work, I have the one you mentioned on order .......... THANKS AGAIN !

- ralph