Hi again, after browsing and admiring some diorama works on several sites, i noticed that the german infantry uniforms were quite different to the ones i saw in movies (eg. Private Ryan, Enemy @ The Gate). In the movie, german infantry wore grayish uniform (light gray ? panzer gray ?). But in some dioramas i saw, most of them wore dark green-ish uniform (without camo pattern). Which one is the more accurate ?

The actual colour of the material is said to be FIELD GREY. With washing, sweat, dirt, grime etc, the colour of the material changed enourmously, even the different batches were different, as the material was made in different places throughout the war. The German REICH Wehrmacht even took Italian camouflage when the Italians turned to the other side.

Reference is the key as always.

http://www.losomatent.org/fieldgrey/english/

Also obviously depends on unit organization. Waffen SS and paratroopers tended to wear camo while the regular Wehrmacht did not. Camo patterns also varied significantly depending on unit and year, and don't forget the Germans fought in hot and cold climes and had appropriate uniforms for those conditions as well which also got into the general mix.

WWII feldgrau is distinctly greenish unlike the WWI color. It was suggested to call it feldgrun but decided to stay with the feldgrau since it was traditional. As the war progressed the quality of the material and dyes deteriorated and the color appeared in every range from the correct greenish gray to almost olive drab.

And, as Martin said, with wear, washing, and sun fading it changed colors even more. But the greenish tones are correct for WWII uniforms. The exception is for 1933-1940 trousers which were a dinstinctly gray color called stone gray . After 1940 the trousers were changed to match the tunic color.

This applies to both the Heer and Waffen-SS,

PH

The above is not strictly speaking correct. The SS and Wehrmacht, fallschirmjager did use camouflage but often in dribs and drabs. Standardisation was routinely ignored especially by those who thought themselves as elite forces. There is much written about ss units adding cuff titles to their blousons where they should not have. Collar and arm patches too.

Sorry, but I don't follow what is "strictly correct" re your comment and not re mine. To the extent camo was worn it was by SS and Falschirmjaeger .

My point is in fact, that from around 1944 onwards, material was getting scarce, thus the camouflage uniforms were not subject to platoons or even service with SS etc.
The uniforms were a mix and match of different types and seasons.
Ie.
pea pattern camo worn with italian camo trousers
oakleaf A pattern with splinter trousers etc............
There was no standard, even though the orders were issued to be standard or "uniform".
Each individual would scrounge his own from any source, including fallen comrades....
Also the point about having correct uniform for "the climes"..winter gear was often worn win summer and vice-versa.
Remember Stalingrad, the regular army had no winter clothing to speak of and had to make do with blankets, skins etc....russian tunics....

Yeah, that was my point, winter or summer gear might be worn under any conditions, depending on preference, as well as any additional comfortable or useful gear, which is true in any case in any army, at any time--if you got the stuff and you can wear it you do. But look, the guy who started this had a very basic question that stemmed from very generic depictions of Germans in movies, etc. Really, what he needed to know was that not all Germans had field gray uniforms all the time, which is why modellers depict them in the great variety of uniforms that they do.

quite

I for one would like to see a photo of anyone wearing Oakleaf A with splinter trousers.

PH

......keiler
It is TOTALLY FALSE to say the Wehrmacht did not wear camo. First the Wehrmacht unlike the Waffen SS had 3 service branches Heer - Luftwaffe - Kreigsmarine.
... Secondly they all had some version of camouflage uni's. And please don't tell me what I heard from someone else - that only Grossdeutschland & snipers wore the the "splinter camo " !

In 1944 to the end of the war, Wehrmacht Heer infantry, recon, snipers, panzer crews & Luftwaffe felddivision troops were to be seen quite often in camo such as:

* Heer - disruptive, soft edged, & hard edged splinter pattern trousers & smock's .
* Luftwaffe "buttoned front " field smock's .
* M43 Style Tunic in splinter camo.
* Zeltbahns.
* Heer Pattern 1943 reversible winter parka's in splinter camo.
.................. That's all I can think of at the moment.

Toon Army
For the Germans in WW2, as with their Pattern M35 - M37 - M43 Tunic's ...... they all varied in color from SLATE & STEEL GREY ....... GREY-GREEN ( field grey ) ..... OLIVE-GREEN
.....OLIVE-BROWN (1944 Pattern Heer Uniform ). The early M35 & 37 tunics had the DARK GREEN faced collar's. That's why it's always best to dig up as much reference for uniforms of any particular Wehrmacht or Waffen SS unit that will be painted on German figures.

- ralph

Yes me too ! ........................ not likely !

- ralph

Quite but you see the point....or perhaps not #:-)

Is a photo needed to "prove" the exsistence or usage of mixed camos?

Yes. People are always claiming the cross-use of W-SS camo by Heer units or vice versa. But when they have to document it they cannot(and don't drag up the HG use of the early Waffen-SS camo smocks-it's noted and documented). I have seen maybe a half-dozen photos of a Heer soldat or officer wearing W-SS camo. If you have a photo of this occuring produce it! I(and Ralph and others) would be glad to add it to our archives and say "Thank You Very Much". But just to accept it by the "it could possibly have happened" claim is not going to happen.

Now I'll climb down of my soapbox and wait for the photo to appear.

PH

Yes PAUL HANSON (yawn....), I would like to see a picture of splinter trousers with Oakleaf A, I'm sure one doesn't exist.
MY POINT....yet again...is that there were numerous difrferent combinations...that was the first to come to mind.....yawn.............................getting bored with explaining this...

Read the bottom paragraph and weep...
http://www.panzerworld.net/Panzeruniforms.htm

Humble pie time me thinks..

Hello, don't want to get into the middle of the debate and maybe I missed what ToonArmy was asking, but I think he was looking for an opinion on what color the basic uniform is. I know what you will all say - it varied. But that doesn't help him. Also being new to this myself and reading the posts, sometimes we miss the basic questions that are being asked and go too far in answering the question. Kind of like when your kid asks you about algebra and you start explaining differential equations.

Anyway, if his question is basically about what looks better - grey or green uniforms, then show him how you have painted the german figure - in either the "green-ish uniform" or "greyish uniform". That would probably help him.

ToonArmy, if this is what you are asking, let me try to give you my preference - and I'll be the first to give the caveat that it may not be the preference of others. I like using Tamiya's XF-65 Field Grey that is more green.

Here is a photo form the D-Day Museum that I recently took and it shows a uniform more green:




Here is a photo that I recently posted of my first figures I ever painted a few weeks ago using the Tamiya Field Grey. Also I will give you the caveat that I just started in this hobby a few months ago so these aren't the greatest but will get my preference across.




Anyway, ToonArmy, is this really what you are looking for? If so, maybe others can show theirs so he can decide for himself. If not, then your answers are really great because I am learning alot from them and I'll be quiet.

GR8Voyager

Thank-you GR8VOYAGER for some sense. I refer to my first post in this thread.

My take on this is, ............IT DOESN'T PROVE A THING - it's more like "Army wearing Waffen SS uniforms took place BUT WAS UNCOMMON. If there were so many photo's ..... then where are they all ? ... I only know of A FEW myself. . Note, that though a lot of speculation is made, then why doesn't the website give any indication where all these photo's, or documentation ........ can be found ? Or why don't they show some photo's on the website ? Look I'm saying yes, their were instances, but it's not like the Wehrmacht was just dying to wear a Waffen SS Eichenlaub Smock.( lol ) And also regardless of further speculation, but the Wehrmacht camo was very, very effective in it's role, as were the Waffen SS patterns.

FUNNY HOW ALL THIS CONTROVERSEY STEMMED FROM A SIMPLE QUESTION ON THE COLOR OF THE "STANDARD " INFANTRY UNI'S ............. LOL - heh - heh - heh !
#:-)

- ralph

I don't want to get into the technicalities of uniforms, but I use Humbrol enamels and I use Hum 111 for the "field grey" of the German uniforms. I am nearly finished a 1/16th German Machine Gunner wearing a GreatCoat and have done him in this colour. I will be putting pics of him up soon.

Maybe there are no photos in existence because the camo is so effective that no-one could see them #:-) (sorry, i know that was a flippant comment, and that uniforms and colours are very important to some people and I don't want to offend them)

Roger

Hi Roger ....... ( LOL ) that's some pretty good humor there
Humbrol 111 is fine and I also use it myself. As you can see from the pic's below it's a close match to 2 of them and close is good enough. I also should have posted these earlier and it would of saved some of the arguments which somehow went " from a field gray question to a camouflage debate" and would have helped Toon Army. The first pic is a Waffen SS tunic and the 2nd was worn by an engineer ( Pioneer ) with the Wehrmacht Heer.The 3rd pic is yet another from the Waffen SS. There were other variious shade's such as the grey-green's ( field gray or feldgrau in German ) that were known. There's an awful lot of variation to German uniforms ( too many to show here ) and I recommend to other to buy some GOOD - WELL REFERENCED book's if they are interested in this subject.

WAFFEN SS


WEHRMACHT HEER


WAFFEN SS - 1.SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler ( Infantry )


- ralph

gr8voyager & screamingeagle, that is exactly what i wanted to see. Thank you.....

I like your figures, gr8voyager. I just started painting some german infantry figures myself, while waiting for my first model (Challenger) to dry properly.

And im sorry that my original post became a big debate.

Thanks for the compliment and I am glad I was able to help. Now if you want to see some really great figures go to the figure forum! No, I am not the alter-ego of Anders trying to get everyone herded in there As I said, I am very new at this and that forum is excellent for getting help.

Here's hoping your figures turn out GR8 (Great) ...

GR8Voyager

Haha your wrong! My mind controls your thinking so that you automatically post to people to head to the figure forum #:-)

Sorry I just had to

Great debate here, very interesting thoughts and points. Ralph, your research really pays off for us others who only do limited research, thanks!!

Wait, did I just post that or did Anders .... and why am I heading to the fridge for a beer and pizza? Must find anti-mind control solution ... ha ha ha only kidding.

That Anders is everywhere ... AndersH, errh GR8Voyager