Hi all,

Just thought I would throw a quick question up, I'm in the process of researching the 1st Armd Bn Coldstream Guards serving in the Guards Armoured Division in WW2 but I have hit some difficulties on tank markings.

I am fine with the divisional and Bn markings, but when I get down to squadron level it gets a bit harder to find information. I know the Coldstream Guard tanks had their individual markings on the stowage bins behind the turret, but I'm trying to determine the system used.

From what I have gathered so far, they all had a number and letter which denoted the troop and vehicle and corresponded to the vehicle call sign. The letters went from nothing for the troop leader on to A-B-C with C typically being the troop firefly. So 4 troop would include vehicles 4, 4A, 4B and 4C.

What I need to know is the troop numbers. Were they repeated from squadron to squadron or did they follow the infantry convention of having unique numbers?

So I guess to explain it a bit better, if A squadron had troops 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, would B squadron have troops 6 though 10 or repeat the 1 through 5 identifiers?

As an add-on, were the squadron hq tanks part of the first troop and if not where did they fall inthe numbering scheme?

Thanks in advance..

R

Hi Doug

For what it's worth, while I was reading about the Sherman Tulip, one of the tanks mentioned (but not shown in an image) was 9B or 9C.

Squadron HQ formed a separate troop, how they fitted into the numbering system, I don't know.

David

Hi Doug,

Had a look in British Tanks in Normandy, the troop signs run as you say 2, 2A, 2B etc.

Most troops would hav been made up of 4 tanks 3 Mk Vs and a Firefly.

So it would appear that they ran in sequence.

I don't know if the Coldstreams use A Sqn or 1 Sqn as I haven't done much research on them but the Irish Guards used 1 Sqn,etc. For troop numbers the ran 1,2,3,4 in each Sqn, the Coldstreamers may have been the same but I can't say for sure.

You could check out the MAFVA site for some tank numbers and they may have the troop scheme used by the CG.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Cheers

Al

The Guards managed to retain their individuality even in the Guards Armoured Division.

The Grenadier Guards gave each of their tanks an individual number running straight through the regiment (going at least as high as 44) which appears to have been painted in a single solid colour.

Coldstream Guards had a troop number/letter combination, with tac symbols on the hull sides.

And AlanL has explained the Irish Guards who were different again.

Most of the comments above came from looking through Mark Hayward's Firefly book. I also spotted at least one tank (not sure of the unit) with a troop number/letter combination including a D. Another variation!

David

Hi Doug I've got a book called "Armoured Guardsmen" the author was a troop commander in 2nd Sqn he was 2 troop commander so troops were numbered 1-4 in each sqn each of his troop,s tanks had aplate with the call sign attatched to turret rear bin. authors name is Robert Boscawen hope this helps Pat

Hi guys, thanks for the help so far.

David: I think it would have been 9C. Fittingly, the Fireflys were all given callsign C in their troops. There's a (smallish) picture of 9C in the Osprey Vanguard Guards Armoured book. I would assume that if the HQ vehicles were classified as a troop they would be the 'first' troop in the Squadron surely? The hard part I guess is clarifying that..

McNeilly: The numbered squadrons were used across Guards Armoured, the CG were no exception. The 'B' Squadron example was a mistake on my part. I originally typed it as 'B Company' and only half corrected it..

Pat: Are you sure on the troop numbers? As I mentioned to David above, I have a picture of 9C in front of me that doesn't seem to fit in with that. I know that troop numbers may not have exactly translated into callsigns. (So 1st Troop 2nd Squadron may have had callsign 5-5C)

Thanks for the help so far guys..

R

Hi Doug

In some cases the squadron headquarters used the letters HQ inside the tac symbol, suggesting that they weren't counted with the troop sequence. As we know, however, producing hard and fast rules for anything involving the British Army is another matter.

Short of a trip to the National Archive and checking original records, a definitive answer will be hard to find. Looking at it another way, are there any Coldstreamers tanks you've found without tac numbers which might be potential squadron headquarters tanks?

David