Hi Jacques

I purchased kit# 184 T-80U m1988 "Leningrad" last summer. Looking at the pictures of kit #197 "Omsk" I cannot seem to find much of a difference between the two kits (#184 vs #197).

The only major difference i picked up on was the absence of the cylindrical snorkelling tube in the Omsk version.....or did you forget to include the snorkel tube in your photo?

I think i see that there are more ammunition boxes for the commander's AA machine gun.

What is the difference? If there is a big enough difference, I might put in an order for an Omsk set.
Tony

Hiya Tony,

First, the only difference between the kits is the "omsk" version does NOT have the snorkel and second is the way the BROD-M mounts on the back of the turret. That is it.

Now, to be honest, it is not that surprising considering the manufacturing background. To us westerners it probably seems trivial, but the fact that the Kirov plant in Leningrad produced 50 or so turbine powered T-80U m1988 was a big deal back in those days. So it is a memorable tank at least in Russia and the Ukriane. The Omsk version is the more numerous version.

However, Sergej's Leningrad kit was made first because of his esoteric choices! :-)

Ok Jacques, you seem to be the go to man when it comes down to Russian armor information. I know because you and Gary teamed up to put to rest alot of my confusion during my last post on the T-72.
With regards to the T-80 I noticed SP does alot of T-80U/UD sets, can you tell me, besides South Korean (T-80U) Pakistan (T-80UD) and the Ukraine (T-84) who elses uses the "U" variant? I know Russian kept to the T-80BV but do they still also use the T-80U?

Thanks in advance!!

Kurt

You missed Cyprus (T-80U) and China (T-80U - there was supposedly a sale in 1993 for ~300)

The T-80BV is still in service with the Russian army and are being (supposedly) brought up to a ne T-80B(M) standard. Not much has been discussed about this upgrade in terms of how many tanks are to be reconditioned, and wether it places their chassis back to "Zero hours" or not. It basically takes older -B units and gives them Kontact-5 or better ERA levels, Thermal Imaging, better FCS, etc... It is supposed to bring them up to at least -U levels and the one photo I have seen of the T-80B(M) looks a lot like a -U, so much so I would not really know the difference unless paying attention.

The T-80U is the main export model. It is still in service with the Russian Army.

T-80UD was in service with the Ukrainian and Russian Army. The Russians, so far as I have been told, have retired all T-80UD's in favor of turbine powered T-80U's. The Ukrainians sold off, or upgraded to T-84 level and sold off, all of the 300+ they had in stock, including the -K command variant.

As of right now the most numerous T-80 in service is the -BV, followed by the -U.

Jacques

The supposed sale of T-80 tanks to the PRC is highly dubious.

If you think about it, the Chinese have not been shy to show off their other purchases from Russia -such as Sukhoi Su-27SK Flanker aircraft, Soveremmeny missile destoyers, Kilo submarines, Mil helicopters, Il-76 transport aircraft, BMP-1, etc. If such a number of T-80s were inducted into PLA service, we would have seen net photos by now. Instead, there are plenty of photos posted of amoured products produced by the PRC's own industries.

I remember once seeing web posted single photo of some Orientals climbing over the turret of a T-80 series tank from inside a red brick building.
For all we a know, it could have been a Chinese delegation visiting a Pakistani army barrack. That photo was a close up showing mostly the turret .
***********
I got two "spare" Skif T-80UD kits waiting for SP Designs to release some more T-80 type conversions. So, I just might buy the "Omsk" conversion if/when SP Designs releases the "T-80B" or "Black Eagle", whichever one comes first.

Tony

Tony

Hey Tony,

Do you happen to like the SP kit you have? How's the detail? And is there alot of resin flash to clean up? From the looks of it they look to be very well made. I'm considering getting a set but I am a little confused on which kit to get as a basis. I want to do a Russian version so I'm looking at the "U" variant and the dilemma comes in when you see Revell has a T-80UD, which I think is a copy of the Zveda kit, which was I believe a copy of the original DML kit that I thought was labeled a T-80U. Whew!! Have any suggestions which kit I should start off with?


Thanks much,

Kurt

Hi Kurt

I purchased several of the SP Designs conversions of theT-80 last summer from Jacques. The kits i purchased were the T-80UD m1985 (turret set & hull detail set) , T-80U m 1988 "Leningrad", T-80U m1985, both the T-80UD m1991 Russian army & Pakistan army versions, T-80UD m1988.
The T-64U m1999 and the T-80 replacement wheels as well.

The SP Designs kits are designed to be used on the Skif T-80UD kit. I purchased the Skif kits from Roll Models. As Jacques pointed out, the Skif T-80UD has more accurate proportions than the Zvezda/Dragon kit.

I am quite satisfied with my purchase. The excess resin is a real pain to remove when considering some of the parts are small and are in strange shapes. The level of detail is adequate.

The SP Designs " T-80UD m1988" is the equivalent of the DML/Zvesda/Revell kit .
Tony

Hey Tony,

Point taken on the Chinese having the T-80U, but then again, the Chinese Govt. can be a real strange animal. The idea behind the T-80U purchase, and vaguely confirmed (sort of), is that they bought them to reverse engineer the various parts. Apparently they were the older models, 1985 or 1988, so they did not have anything fancy like a TI, or advanced FCS stuff. But they did have K-5. The Russian point of view was that anything the Chinese would learn would take them so long to implement that the next generation or two of follow on equipment would already be in Russian service. Just like K-5 is being supplanted by Kaktus ERA and the like. Also, I don't think the Chinese bought the tanks for use on active service, so they may be trying to keep it hush-hush. one thing I know for certain is that the Russians would not sell the manufacturing secrets or rights to the Chinese for a T-80U level MBT.

Add in Chinese pride to build their own tanks "in house" and it MIGHT lead to them being quiet about the whole deal...or it may all be just misinformation. I think it would be interesting if nothing else, but there are other possibilities none the less.

Phew.

As for SP Designs, I have been actively poing an prodding at Sergej to steadily improve his kits. Like remastering the T-80 turret to be hollow with a few major interior pieces. Or remastering the TOS-1 to make the details crisper. Or working with his resin casting to offer the best results, and putting pour stubs in better spots.

I am currently "advising" him on casting hiw ERA better, and trying to get him to remaster his T-80 tracks to cast out better. I will keep working oon him!

As for the RoG T-80UD...it is a copy of the Zvezda T-80UD, which is a correctly named DML T-80U SMT m1989. DML just messed up their designators.

For a good understanding of where to start from check out myT-80 help page. It should give you a good place to start from.

Out of curiosity, is there any plan to make a T-80U/UD/BV conversion for the Skif model to make a 200-2005 era Russian T-80? I enjoyed using your T-80U 1985 set for a diorama and would like very much to do a T-80 with the Miniarm T-90 conversion sets. Would any of your sets be modifiable as is?

Part of my problem is I'm having a heck of a time finding photos of Russian T-80's from the last 6 years. I'd hate to build one using older photos and find out that there were changes.

Thanks,
Matt

Hello Matt,

Well, if you want to do a common current T-80, you want to do one of the following:

1. T-80BV - This is the most common version of the T-80 in service. SP Designs is currently working on a hollow turret conversion for the SKIF kit. Miniarm is supposedly going to come out with a conversion in 2007.

2. T-80U m1988 Omsk - This is the second most common version, and is usually the one you see in pictures if the T-80 has K-5 ERA.

There are other very modernized versions of the T-80 out there, but they are either only technology demonstrators or else they are being rebuilt in small numbers and are somewhat secretive. The word in the Russian Arms Industry is the 2007-2008 will see a big boost in modernized/rebuilt T-80's, as well as T-72/T-90's. I will believe it when I see it. The MXXXX designator refers to the year it was put into production. SFAIK there has been no newer number than the T-80UD m1991 as the T-80U has not recieved any large upgrades enmasse since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the subsequent in-fighting of the major tank production facilities. However, as stated above, things seem to be straightening out in Russia...

I am not sure that the Miniarm T-90 set will be as helpfull for a T-80 conversion, other than maybe the ERA or other hull fittings. They are two totally different designs made by two competing manufacturer's, so I am not sure much will be interchangeable. Remember, manufacturer's in Russia are VERY picky about what they produce for domestic consumption, hence the "Leningrad" conversion for essentially the same tank.

Thank you. What I meant to say was that I'd like to have a modern T-80 in the same diorama as a modern T-90, using the Miniarm kit for the latter.

Matt

Ok, got you.

The best you can get your hands on right now is the T-80U m1988 Omsk for the most modern T-80.

There is a newer "rebuilt" version of the T-80 with a integrated TI and upgraded electronics that MAY become a very common version and I would suspect that a kit conversion would become available once pictures/measurements were available.

Hi,
I have the Zvezda T-80U (ex Dragon ??) and I am interested in making a Cypriot T-80UD.
I know I need new road wheels and a conversion.update kit with the wading trunk.
Which kits of SP Designs should I use?

Below you can see some links for pics of the vehicle I want to depict:
http://www.army.gov.cy/index.php?id=227&type=0&vid=1&view=side
http://www.army.gov.cy/index.php?id=227&type=0&vid=1&view=face
http://www.army.gov.cy/index.php?id=227&type=0&vid=1&view=top

thanks in advance.
Stavros,
Athens , Greece

Hello Stavros,

From the pictures you supplied it looks like a T-80U, not the diesel powered -UD. The kit you want is 197, T-80U m1988 "Omsk".

IIRC Cyrprus did indeed get vehicles that had been produced for the Russian Army but they were not bought and the company was allowed to sell them as export.

Hello Jacques!

Sorry to have you running back and forth answering all these questions but like Stavros I too am eyeing up doing the Zveda T-80UD kit and am wondering how compatible is the SP kit with the Zveda/DML kit. I know many of the SP kits are designed, so far, with the Skif kits in mind.

Thank You,

Kurt

Guys
http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/buk_2m/index.html

I would suggest that you explore this Japanese modeler's website.
He has photos showing SKIF and DRAGON kits side by side, etc.
You'll notice how different the dimension/proportions are.

First, Tony, THANK YOU for that link...here is the specific comparison page . That is a excellent showing of the shortcoming of both kits that I have not been able to do yet.

Kurt, yes, the SP Designs stuff CAN work onthe DML kit, it is just that there is more work involved. And that the DML kit needs more accuracy...if you change out the turret, it looks good, but the rest of the hull starts to look...weird. So you fiddle witha handfull of details and then something else doesn't quite look right...etc. Again, it can be done, but there are compromises that have to go with it.

Hi Tony,

dude,....thanks for the link. That guy has some great stuff posted over there!

But unfortunately some pages are not online anymore including his Strela Build which I'm planning to build too. Aaaaargh. I send him an email so I hope he will answer it.

Oke, back to the topic subject

Nope still off topic..

He's got some interesting builds there.

If it is not too much an imposition and if you hear from him and get pics of the build, I'd be very interesed in seeing them as well.

Thanks for doing the legwork on this one.

Mike

Okay my friends, this is it for my questions (and I do apologize if I already asked this one). Is the Skif T-80 series the most accurate on the market? And if so how accurate are they?

Thank You,

Kurt

SKIF's T-80's are te best of the bunch, but they still have issues. This is mainly covered on my T-80 webpage. If you want to do one more OOB, I would recomend the DML T-80U SMT m1989 kit (or Zvezda T-80UD, they are the same kit) with a eduard 125mm metal barrel and Eduard PE for the kit (keep an eye on this, there are ar least 3 different T-80 PE sets by Eduard). This will give you something that is well within the ballpark of accuracy.

Beyond that involves a fair amount of work.

Thanks for all the info Jacques, you've definitely helped sort out alot of confusing dilemmas.

Kurt

Ok, I have some more info to help clarify (or muddle up) some T-80 info:

- The T-80 was designed at the Kirov Plant in Leningrad. Kirov was also the ones who were focusing on gas turbine engines.

- While the Kirov plant produced some vehciles, I do not know how many at this point, production was also started up at Omsk. In 1990, the Kirov plant was closed so all T-80 production after that was either at OMSK (T-80U) or Kharkov (T-80UD). My guess is that Leningrad only produced ~50 or so of the T-80U m1988 there, the main production at Kirov being the short lived T-80 and mainstay T-80B.

- my best guess at this point is that Omsk was/is the main production facility of the T-80U and its follow-ons.

- Kharkov, in the Ukraine, produced the Diesel engined T-80UD as an alternative to the T-80U.

- Omsk is set to emerge from bankruptcy and start large scale production at the end of 2007 according to people in the Russian defense industry. So there may be a new variant of the T-80 coming out in the next few years...?

The small changes in the T-80U m1988 for both Leningrad and Omsk kits shows their shared heritage, but I am not certain of why they needed seperate kits. I will just query Sergej on this to get a proper answer (Duh!).

I do hope that this helps somewhat. Since the T-80 is still in use, there are some bits of info that are not being disseminated, much like the M1 or Leopard II series, although it is easier to know what variants are what!

Jacque, Two questions. 1. Is the T-90 simply an evolved T-72? (Similar to M1A1 to M1A2?) Also, the T-80 is an evolved T-64, right?
2. If the above is true, do you know why the Soviets had two distinct types of tanks? I have to think that they (T-80 and T-90) are meant to do the same things. Seems to be rather inefficient to me.

Here is the brief, brief, brief version of 50 years of tank development:

T-55 grew out of WWII designs.

T-62 was a evolutionary development of the T-55.

T-64 was developed on requirements to make the most EVOLUTIONARY tank possible at the time. It came with bugs.

T-72 was a development by a rival design team to help "fix" some of the bugs in the T-64 and make a tank that was more conscript freindly. While based on lessons learned from the T-64, it was based on a different Objekt line of vehicles.

T-80 was a development to help create a next generation tank based on lessons learned from the T-64. While the hull/suspension is all new, it started out with a turret very similar to the T-64 that was promptly reworked into the T80B standard.

T-90 is a T-72BM renamed in response to the poor showing of the T-72 on the battelfield, especially in Iraqi hands. Because the design bereau's were trying to obtain export contracts, they ended up using a bit of marketing to make things look more different than they are. The T-90S chassis and turret are now becoming more of a distinct tank from the T-72 line, so they are more deserving of the name than the plain T-90 was.

T-95 is the name for the not yet seen heir apperant future tank of the Russian Army. Many Russian sources state that the T-95 is readying for production, but we will see.

On the other hand, the Russians are becoming a lot more secretive again about Military development...

So the answer to your questions are:

1. T-90 is a derivative of the T-72 line similar to the M1A1 to M1A2.

2. T-80 is a much bigger jump from a T-64, although the T-80 did not surpass the combat capabilities of the T-64 series until the T-80U series came out. Think of the T-80 as a new vehicle based on lessons learned from the T-64.

Hope that basic primer helps some.