From this picture of the Churchill at Saumur it appears to have an external mantlet which I've only seen rarely in photos - so is it real or a museum copy?



David

Hey Drader,
It looks like a number of de-mobilized and disarmed AFV's that I've seen.
There are lots of photos of tanks like this, where the main armament has been removed and having been replaced by dummy guns.
This appears to be one of these vehicles.
The only Churchills that I know of, that had an external mantlet , were the NA75 conversions used in Tunisia, Sicily and Italy.
Cheers

jjumbo

Hi John

Have a look at this:



Now I've looked at the Saumur picture a bit more, there is evidently a sighting hole just under co-ax, so it might be real.

David

Hey David,
I can't really tell from that photo, it's not that clear but maybe a field modification?
I've read somewhere that British tank crews were not happy with the internal gun mantlets of their tanks, especially the Churchill and Cromwell.
Something about the internal mantlet creating a shadow that German tank and anti-tank crews used as aiming points.
I believe the Comet was the first British tank to address this and have an external mantlet like German and American tanks.
To me, the Saumur's Churchill still looks like the museum's attempt to replace the gun.
I can't post the photo, but Wikipedia has a similar photo of a Cromwell at the Yad la-Shiryon Museum in Israeli.
The Cromwell has had external mantlet welded on and a dummy 17 pounder gun mounted.
Cheers

jjumbo

Hi John

I know the Wikipedia shot, the Cromwell is next to their H-39 which was apparently restored using the Heller model as a guide

Annoyingly I can't find a decent set of photos of the Saumur tank, there's one pic on Armourinfocus, and they're cagey about the mantlet too. David Fletcher's history of the Churchill doesn't have much to say on the subject either. The shot in my last posting is the first I could find on the IWM database, but there is at least one other I'm sure that I've seen. Spot the Churchill ARV in the background too :-)

I did find this shot from the 70s of the Saumur tank

http://news.webshots.com/photo/1252223940063387170SoHBSk

Which shows a decent looking 75mm barrel (making it either a Mk IV or Mk VI), so it may be the real deal.

David

Hi John,

Na75s were not deployed in either Tunisia or Sicily.

Much to the relief of the chaps who had to crew the Shermans, our Na75s were delivered during July 1944 - the North Irish Horse was the first unit to receive them.

Incidentally, no Churchills saw service in Sicily.

Cheers, Gerry

























Incidentally, Churchills were not deployed in Sicily.

Cheers, Gerry

Could it be a command/observation Tank?

Fitted with a dummy armorment so that it doesnt stand out as an obvious target (I know some shermans were kitted like that). With no gun there is more room for radio equipment etc.

Hi Again Gerry again an off topic subject for you? I was wondering about the Tac Signs with the North Irish Horse? I have conflicting information about the colors? Some Say Senior Regement RED others say that it looks like the North Irish Horse used a slightly Different system of Red Fo A squadron, Yellow for B and Blue for C? Which is correct by your memory as you were there.
Thaks in Advance
Jeff Larkin

Hi Jeff,

As senior unit in 25th Tank Brigade and later in the 21st, the NIH colour was red - the second in line was yellow and the third blue - consequently Squadron insignia was red for the dianond, square, etc. Tank names on the louvres were also red.

Presently my server is down, when it comes up I will send you the full info on Churchill insignia.

With best wishes,

Gerry

Jeff, a follow up.

Here is a drawing of the last Churchill I crewed. It is accurate except for the helmet - NIH crews did not carry them.

See: http://www.geocities.com/vqpvqp/nih/FTP/Ballyrashane.jpg

Cheers, gerry

HiGerry
Thanks that is what I thought. You are a True Gentalman!
Thanks and I look forward to the information on the markings. As I have been on one heck of a churchill kick as of late 9 Done since December. Need to mark them and weather them for the Dispaly Cases.
Cheers
Jeff

[quote]Na75s were not deployed in either Tunisia or Sicily.

Incidentally, no Churchills saw service in Sicily.
[quote]

Hey Gerry,
OOPS, , me stupid!!
I guess that since the Churchill NA75's were converted by the REME 665 Tank Troops Workshops in Algeria in late 1943 and early 1944, I figured that some may have been used in Tunisia and Sicily.
I'd read that 200 had been produced by June 1944 and I mistakenly assumed that some were used in the Sicilian and Italian Campaigns.
Cheers

jjumbo