Both the Crusader and Cromwell tanks had command versions with armament replaced by dummy weapons and radio equipment where the wepons equipment would have been. I have yet to see any pictures of how such tanks were laid out internally. Does anyone have any illustrations? Thanks.

I don't know about crusaders and Cromwells but there is an illustration of how the turret interior of a command Firefly was laid out in the Sherman In British and Commonwealth Service by Osprey

I can't locate the picture I have of the inside of a RAM OP (Canadian) but basically the turret space which would have contained the breech was used for 1 or 2 map tables. If you run across any good photos of a Sherman OP I would like to see them as I haven't been able to find any either.

A "command Firefly"?? Are you sure? What could possibly be the point of that? 17 pdrs were always in short supply. Command vehicles had dummy guns so they wouldn't stick out as targets. Finally Fireflys, because of the long barrel, were always primary targets. All this adds up to the extreme unlikelyhood that there was such a thing as a "command Firefly". Actually, I suppose, by definition, there couldn't be an such thing as a "command Firefly" as, without a 17 pdr (and all the other internal gubbins that go into a Firefly), the Sherman in question wasn't a "Firefly" at all, rather it would be a Sherman OP with a long dummy gun that might as well have had painted on it "shoot me first".

I'm sorry if this comes off a snarky (I'm in a bit of a mood tonight) but I don't really mean to be. It just strikes me as incredible that such a thing as a "command" Firefly could be said to exist. If I'm wrong, I will just as incredibly eat my words, but I'd want to see some serious proof first. :-)

Paul

I actually have said book and took a look at it. It does show a Firefly turret interior, but it is a conventional tank with gun with a radio in the bustle, not the special gunless tanks I was referring to.

Truth be told, I didn't even know there were any Shermans done up with a fake gun and all radios inside, but maybe there were.

I don't have the book in front of me but........................you're almost certainly right and it's a Sherman V. That's what you get for writing without references.

Good thing I didn't say it was painted Khaki Drab :-) :-)

I have the book and there are two images on that page. The upper is the rear right hand side of a Vc turret (From text but would be the same for 1c). The lower image is of a Sherman OP. It has a series of fold down (hinged above the mantlet opening/trunnio) map frames. The Coax 30 is still fitted and a large stowage tray is in place of the gun at hull top level with two signal satchels (Small haversacks) stowed under the trunnionsa lot of 50 and 30 cal Ammo stowage bins are located around the turret floor.
The layot would be similar for a Cromwell OP or Comd Tank but they may have more radios in place of the map table.
Cheers
AL

The Osprey drawing is obviously derived from the official stowage diagram.

The gun on this Sherman OP tank photographed in Normandy looks very suspect



David

Hi Derek

I don't believe that the tank is a Firefly, it has a bow MG and also the standard M34A1 mantlet. Fireflies had a mantlet which has some unique features like the lack of 'ears' either side of the barrel and also exposed mounting screws, compare the mantlet in the picture with this one.



To me the tank appears to be Sherman V.

David

I am certain from that photo that this is a standard M34A1 mantlet , plus no Fireflys were ever issued to artillery units. Also, I'm sorry, but the barrel on that Sherman doesn't look terribly long at all and certainly doesn't have a brake at the end. Remember, the entire point of the dummy barrel was to blend in. Putting any dummy barrel on anj OP that looked like a 17 pdr or even the US 76mm M1 would be like putting out a sign that says "shoot me first" in big honkin' letters.

There is a sack or muzzle cover on the end of the barrel in the photo and that may be distorting your impression of its length.

Back to Tom's initial question, though, I would bet that command or OP version of Crusaders and Cromwells would be laid out like the Rams and Shermans: Additional map tables and probably extra viewing devices plus at least one additional radio, maybe more.

HTH

Paul