First, let me confess that I am just returning to modeling after an absence of almost 50 years. My modeling skills are very crude at best.

Having confessed that up front, I have some observations regarding some of the artillery dioramas I have seen on this and other sites. My observations are based upon several years as a U. S. Marine artilleryman and battery commander.

Powder -
I recently saw a diorama with several bags of powder laying about an M-107......with the crew in sleeping bags next to the gun. The old adage of 'keep your powder dry" applies to artillery in a big way. In fact, even the temperature of the powder is taken into account in the calculation of firing data. Powder is also very dangerous when it is exposed. I have never seen it just left laying around a gun pit. Powder charges are usually "cut" just before each round is fired. The powder cutting area is usually off to the side and rear of the piece, far enough away from the ammo supply that if the powder caught on fire, the whole pile wouldn't go up. The cut powder charges are the tossed into a whole dug near the cutting area and burned after the fire mission is complete.

Number of guns in a battery -
Artillery pieces (at least U. S. Artillery) ar normally deployed in batteries of 4 to 8 guns, with 6 guns being the norm. In Vietnam, the 105mm and 155mm howitzers were usually deployed in full batteries of 6 guns, although 2 and 4 gun "platoons" were deployed as well. For the Marines, the 8" hows, 155mm guns and 175mm guns were usually deployed in platoons of 2 guns each. I believe the Army usually deployed these calibers in 4 gun batteries. Marine 4.2 inch mortar batteries were deployed in full batteries of 6 guns or in 2, 3 or 4 gun platoons as the situation demanded. (In the Army, the four-deuce was an infantry weapon.)

Distance between Guns -
When in firing position, they are deployed in a variety of formations with the distance between guns being roughly the same as the bursting radius of the rounds they fire. For example a 105mm howitzer has a bursting radius of about 35 meters, so 105mm howitzers would be placed about 35 meters apart. Similarly, 155mm Howitzers, 8" howitzers and 175mm guns are usually placed about 50 meters apart.

Maintenance -
The guns were cleaned, maintained and inspected after each fire mission. The rust, dirt and crud seen on many museum pieces and "gate guards" is there because they don't have a gun crew caring for them 24/7. People's lives depended upon the maintenance of the weapons - they were cared for like babies. Similarly, the battery vehicles were kept maintained....you never knew when the order would cme to displace to a new position.

Soot on the muzzles -
All the artillery pieces I ever worked with fired smokeless powder. Any small amount of residual powder left on the muzzle was cleaned off when the weapon was cleaned after the fire mission.

Trash in the gun pits -
Some time back there was a nice pic of an Army 105 in a gun pit in Vietnam. Note that there was no trash, debris, scattered rounds, etc in the gun pit. This is the way the gun pits - indeed the entire battery area - were kept. Who wants to trip over trash while lugging a 96 pound projectile from the ammo bunker to the gun during a fire mission?

I hope this helps some of the younger modelers who may not have first-hand artillery experience.

Semper Fi,
Whiskey6 (Dave)

However First hand accounts of folks in Vietnam state that before a major fire missions Crates of Ammo were stacked near the guns, and that during fire missions shells were chucked behind the cannon. I received this info from Helicopter pilots who brought in those cases (my uncle being one of them) and from some of the redlegs themselves.

It is possible that there would be a pile of spent shell casings, during and immediately after the fire mission. Cause there wasnt any time while you are pumping through rounds firing for support, or defending your own fire base to neatly stack spent rounds.

Yes, a pile of spent shell casing outside the gun pit is acceptable. The pit itself is kept clean for the above reasons. The stacked ammo is O.K. too, outside the pit, just not opened powder cans and shells laying around haphazardly. Artillerymen are very lock-step, by the numbers types. We like things in the proper order.

Save the trash, etc. for the Fire Direction Center...

Great info you've shared! Keep us honest!

Now, now, now, let's not knock the 13-E's!!! Unless all the gunbunnies want to be limited to direct fire, you're going to need the FDC........


Tom

Hey Dave,

Good stuff! I have an incredibly awsome picture of one of our guns firing part of a Battalion six in the first Gulf War (C Btry, 3rd Bn, 41st FA, 24th ID)....you know....round barely visible..."fire" shooting from the muzzle...taken at night. Killer pic. But, during that FM, powder canisters and crap were pretty well strewn where ever they landed (and they weren't tossed behind the gun)...and excess powder was IMMEDIATELY taken care of.

Someone doing a static and relaxed gun position dio needs to take your comments to heart.....action on the other hand is a bit different.

Gun Bunnies are a notoriously meticulate bunch...(until they get back to base!)....If not, Smoke would be on their (you know what most tic) tail.

Again, great post! Touche!!!

Mike

Mike,
I agree with you on the strewn powder cans and fuze boxes with SP arty on the move. Dave is talking mostly about towed arty in fixed firing positions though. As you know, the actual gun pit is kept very clean and as you said, powder is dealt with immeediatly and never left laying around.

The pic you have sounds awesome. Gotta love the "in action pics." I have some awesome MLRS (1-39 FA (MLRS), 3ID) firing pics from OIF too.

I wish I could figure out how to do these quotes...Oh well!

You guys are absolutely correct...when the stuff hits the fan, things can get a bit untidy, especially where the rounds are being prepared. I think the main idea is that the powder goes right from the cutting area to the breach. I don't think I ever saw any just laying around....too freaking dangerous!

I forgot to mention the eye-bolts from the fuze wells of the 155mm, 175mm and 8" rounds. Those and the banding straps from the ammo pallets can get a bit messy in the ammo areas during a fire mission or when the rounds are being unloaded from the trucks. (I have no experience with the tracked ammo carriers.) A bit of trivia - since there were no beehive rounds for the 155's and 8", the eye-bolts, when loosely packe into sandbags and rammed home made a convincing field expedient "canister" round. Tore the rifling up tho.

I'd love to see the firing shots from Gulf I if you have them scanned!

My wife and I are going through the attic ....spring cleaning after many years....I hope to find some of my old pics. I think I have some slides of my Mortar Battery in Vietnam, as well as some of my M-109 battery in North Carolina and the Carribean. If I find them, I'll scan and upload them.

Semper Fi,
Dave

Combine that with the usual anal-retentive nature of Marines and you can end up with an obscenely neat battery position!!!

Another post on this site by Chris Mrosko linked to some superb pics of U.S. Marines in Lebanon in 1983, including a couple of shots of a Marine M-198 position. Obviously, these guys are not in action...the pics are posed (note their ear protectors {index fingers} are down at their sides)....but these are some nice shots of a typical Marine gun pit.

Also note the aiming circles (2 of them) in different shots of the gun. for those who like to scratch-build little-bitty stuff, an aiming circle might be fun. There is also a nice close-up of a BC (Battery Commander's) scope. One of those could be fun as well for those who have skills far beyond mine.

Here is the link to Chris' excellent pics:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/526495/message/1175734975/U.S.M.C.%28Jarhead%29+Images%2C+Beirut%2C+Lebanon+1983

BTW, I'm clearly no exprert on the M-198 but the last shot of the gun - with the gunner and a-gunner seated on the trails appears to have been reversed if you look closely at the breach block and the sight.

Semper Fi,
Dave

I started on the 175MM but spent most of my 20 years with 105MM. The towed position was always kept neat and most time most of the ammo, fuzes etc were kept on the truck to keep from loading and unloading every time you moved. In Vietnam many 105s were put into firebases with gun pits. Most of my time with 105mm (1977 - 1994) I never saw a gun pit. There was the gun and if you drove to the position, the tow vehicle. If the truck was with the howitzer, the back was laid out neatly to access everything. If you had all the different types of ammo and fuzes, it became tight.

As for the comment on the beehive, let us not forget "killer junior", a HE round with a time fuze set for ~1 sec.

Gino,
depending on where you were at, and just what you were shooting dictated just how the trash pile grew. 105's typically tossed the empty cases well out of the way, and these would be cleaned up first thing in the morning. The left over powder charges were almost always well to the left of the tube, or just outside the parapit. Never were allowed to accumulate inside the parapit. to be exact they were always tossed outside of the wall. But a 105 charge is fairly small when compaired to a zone three charge out of a 175. 155's were the ones that created the huge piles of left over powder, and I've seen pickup truck loads of powder waiting tobe burnt the following morning. The rounds themselves are never left in the way of the loader or anyone else between the trails, but have seen as many as eight laying on the ground right behind the loader in a contact fire mission that had to be done as fast as possible. When a crew was stuck as the H&I gun you would often see alot of pallets and fuse boxes laying at the rear of the gun, but completely out of the way of the radio man. It was not all that uncommon to have to shoot 300+ rounds from about ten at night to about six in the morning, and it's a lot easier to just bring in the rounds you'll shoot and work off of that rather than resupply the ammo bunker(s). Samething with the powder. Most of the time we'd have the resupply helecopters just dump the rounds in the back of a five ton truck, and from there we'd break the pallets down and fuse the rounds. That way we had five men on the gun and another three doing the powder and projo's. I might add here that on an H&I night everybody rotated jobs, and rank had absolutly no privileges. Everybody humped rounds. I've even seen the First Sargent and Captain helping out when things got bad. You don't have to goto Golds Gym to get a work out in a 155 outfit.
gary

Dave,
It sounds like you didn't play well with the ROCK PAINTERS.
Remember, Semper Gumby (Always Flexible)

Semper Fi,
Don

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Don -

You betcha! I figured the Marine Corps existed for only two reasons - drillin' and killin'. I never could see how painting rocks fit in. I guess I had an attitude problem or somethin'.

Semper Fi,
Dave

Thanks. I am finding that as I get older, I not only can't hear too well, but now i can't see either!!!! It is always frustrating when the obvious eludes me.

Sempre Fi,
Dave