Invariably, in these types of threads, sooner or later the "Who cares?" or "It's your model," or "I don't concern myself with such details" or "This is all interpretative art," or my favorite, "You can't prove it didn't happen, so that proves it did" etc. type comments are made.

But the topic here is that a serious discussion is being undertaken concerning the use of certain schemes and colors. The topic is not whether or not the discussion itself is merited or should even be broached.

So we already know that there are you guys that have a freer approach to issues of research, historical accuracy and so on. We know that some view this as useless pedantry. We understand that. That's why I'm hoping that this thread won't be steered into the usual rough terrain that we seen these threads head for in the past.

Now getting back to the topic at hand: I'd like to hear thoughts about the single base coat color used on the wheels of the IR Panther shown above. It's quite dark and as many of us know, is depicted as red oxide primer in Jentz' and Doyle's Osprey Panther Variants book.

Of course, Jentz also conveniently has backed away and disavowed color plates in his books in the past as "figments of someone's imagination" and with no explanation as to how such "figments" got into his books, who advised the artists to interpret photos in such a a manner and so on. So when someone such as this refutes his own work, we're left with a bit of a mystery.

Can I ask? Is there a real answer to this question being discussed or just opinions (which are fine)

Couldn't the wheels of the IR panther be olivgrun?

I'm scratching my head in bewilderment at how the "red primer" craze even got off the ground in the first place.

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Couldn't the wheels of the IR panther be olivgrun?

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This is what I had wondered...

I was reading this thread and was wondering about the statement that armor hulls and components were only delivered to the assembly plants in red oxide primer from Sept. - Dec. 1944. I believe that this is imlpying that they were delivered in dunkelgelb before this? Looking at photos of panther hulls on MAN's assembly line in Jan. 1944 would seem to contradict this. The hulls and most components appear to be painted in red oxide primer in the areas not covered by zimmerit. The only areas that appear to be dunkelgelb are on the lower hull and suspension components. These seem to have just been painted during assembly and a pronounced demarcation line appears between this and the primer. Moving on to something more on topic, I personally think that the photo from the Patton Museum shows a heavily weathered dunkelgruen and rotbraun, not primer finish. Especially since this pattern was repeated on the main gun barrel.

However, I would say it would be unlikely; think about it, is bright red really a decent camouflage colour you'd want to have on your tank going into battle?

I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but if the red oxide was the bright red as you say, it makes no sense to me that the Germans would issue whatever dwindling production of tanks in bright red. No matter how desperate the situation, with "jabos" swarming everywhere hunting for targets, there should have been the presence of mind to do whatever it takes to camouflage their precious supply of tanks. Just my dos centavos.

Given that there seems to be very little (if any) documentary evidence of red primer being used as camo
- Steve

Greg,

There's a third possibility...that Jentz is right but the section cited is not about the colors used in the "ambush" scheme? The section cited talks about the phases that Tiger IIs went through in terms of their camo, but interestingly the section 6.3.4.1 is what addresses the "ambush" scheme colors...but it's cut-off and not referenced, what does it say? Is it conceivable that the description of application of Dunkelgelb and Olivgrun over the red primer was meant to be a two-tone hard-edged scheme and not three-tone, ending up with a scheme for example that is seen on the DML Panther G box-art? We automatically assume that is should be three-tone but perhaps that itself is a mis-conception?

But if the dates of production (as suggested by others here) of the IR Panther - are anything like correct the earlier ambush scheme orders are not relevant (August '44) - it also appears from the photos I posted earlier that the lighter and mid-shade colours are OVER sprayed on the darker colour

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But if the dates of production (as suggested by others here) of the IR Panther - are anything like correct the earlier ambush scheme orders are not relevant (August '44) - it also appears from the photos I posted earlier that the lighter and mid-shade colours are OVER sprayed on the darker colour

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Anything produced before August 1944 would've been basecoated at the factory in Dunkelgelb and then camo painted in the field...so if the IR panther was produced before 1944, any camo that it's wearing would have to have either a) been applied in the field or b) applied at the factory when refitted with the IR gear?

True - but suggestions here are that this vehicle was completed around Sept of '44 - agree that earlier than this vehicles would have looked like this at the factory (would love to see the rest of the footage that this grab came from)



Don't know that we will ever know the real answer - but choose to model my vehicles on the basis of what Jentz says but tempered by common sense based on what I see in photos like those I posted earlier.

Greg