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To "red oxide" - or not to "red oxide"?
Damraska
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 12:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The one thing on this Stug that really puzzles me is that red on the Balkenkreuz, it makes no sense at all. I can't imagine that the white would have deteriorated completely down to the primer, since than it should have also deteriorated the Dunkel Gelb inderneath.



With regards to the unit insignia, I think the bright red was painted on top of the white. At the top of the unit emblem you can see a faint white outline. You can also see the white coming through the bright red, but not the other way around. I think a stencil with the whole shield was used to create the white background, then another stencil was lain over that before spraying the red.

Same for the Balkenkreuz. It looks like it was initially black and white, but someone later sprayed or hand painted bright red over the white portions.

The paint is wearing in the reverse order it was applied. Bright red to white, white to dunklegelb/olivgrun/schokoladenbraun, dunklegelb/olivgrun/schokoladenbraun to primer. As would be expected, the vertical surfaces are generally holding up better than the horizontal ones. The horizontal surfaces are also much more contaminated by dust, which complicates identification and scatters light during photography.

To me, the primer red looks consistent with rust colored paints--pretty darn red in direct light but almost dark brown in indirect light. The Finnish Stug shots were taken outside on an overcast day, with diffused sunlight giving good illumination. This Fort Knox Stug was photographed inside in poor light using a (not very powerful) flash.

I would like to see a close-up, well lit photo of a vertical surface suspected to be schokoladenbraun, to see if it is wearing off and the primer showing through. Or are the those areas wearing to bare metal?

-Doug
Henk
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 12:37 PM UTC
The Balkenkreuz has a serious gash through it, from left low, through the centre. Is that showing (oxidised) bare metal, or primer?

Braille
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 10:23 PM UTC
Rot or Rotbraun RAL 8012 (red oxide primer)

From the photograhs presented here this looks and most probably is a satin or gloss enamel paint. This type of finish is of a higher durablity than a flat finish paint and does not allow for fuel, oil, dirt, grime or mud to adhere to it so easily or at all. It is formulated to be resistant to both fire and fuel. The satin or gloss finish also makes it very resiliant against water and rain thus protecting the armour from rust around the welded areas, crew / engine access openings as well as attached items on the vehicle. Because of the satin or gloss finish it would be of extreme importance to cover this type of finish under a flat base coat of paint. Leaving this type of paint exposed would be completely uninconspicuous of camoflage due to the reflective nature of a satin or gloss painted surface on the open battefield. Not to mention the bright red color (even under a cloudy sky). I do believe that some vehicles did leave the factory without a base coat of paint but I also believe that every effort would have been made by the field workshops and crew to cover over their vehicle with the issued camoflage paste tins before ever reaching the battlefield. I wasn't there but from what I have read these people had some of the worlds best trainned crews even up to the very end and I do not believe that they would knowingly or willingly jeapordize themselves or their vehicle without doing whatever it took to survive and try and maintain an advantage over their oppoinent. Thus, I am in full agreement with Herbert, that exposed red oxide primer as part of the camoflage in the battlefield just did not happen!

Also from looking at some of the presented photograhs here and in my tiny library I will have to change my thinking on the paint chipping on the German vehicles and go with what Herbert, had posted (and had some apples flung his way for it). That red oxide primer is some really tough stuff and has stood up well under the base coat of paint in what looks like some high ware areas without exposing the armour. Will have to change from many dark black/brown paint chips to only a few red ones showing through here and here.

Up to now thanks everyone for sharing their input and information on the color and hue of the RAL 8012 paint and interesting links too! Especially you Bill for your support! And thanks for dropping by Doog. It's always good to hear from you. Wish more viewers would log in and share, it makes it that much more interesting and enjoyable.

-Eddy
Kelley
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 12:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The one thing on this Stug that really puzzles me is that red on the Balkenkreuz, it makes no sense at all. I can't imagine that the white would have deteriorated completely down to the primer, since than it should have also deteriorated the Dunkel Gelb inderneath.


Ok, off the original subject guys, but since it's been brought up; concerning the red Balkenkreuz, there is solid evidence of red outlined BK's in use late in the war. It certainly wasn't widespread, but I've seen pics of at least one late (no zim) Panther G with one, a few Panzer IV's, and this Stug. I also have a good clear color pic of a piece of Panzer IV turret schurtzen, recovered post war, where the red around the BK is very plain to see. The origins, where's and why's of this have been discussed elsewhere, but as far as I know, no conclusion(s) have been reached.

Cheers,
Mike
thedoog
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 03:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Also from looking at some of the presented photograhs here and in my tiny library I will have to change my thinking on the paint chipping on the German vehicles and go with what Herbert, had posted (and had some apples flung his way for it). That red oxide primer is some really tough stuff and has stood up well under the base coat of paint in what looks like some high ware areas without exposing the armour. Will have to change from many dark black/brown paint chips to only a few red ones showing through here and here.

And thanks for dropping by Doog. It's always good to hear from you. Wish more viewers would log in and share, it makes it that much more interesting and enjoyable.

-Eddy

Thanks, Eddy! Youmake some good points as well!
I would, however, be cautious about changing your chipping style based upon this vehicle--don't overlook the fact that we don't know the history of this vehicle, therefore, we don't know if it may have rolled out to the troops and been promptly abandoned or broke down? (Therefore exhibiting very little wear?)
Also, though the topic of chipping has its fierce proponents/detractors, you would be remiss to "change your style" based upon one vehicle. Furthermore, think of it this way--what we think of as "chipping" can very clearly be seen on any construction vehicle as having rusted/dark brown/metallic properties. and this is what most people expect when looking at a vehicle exhibiting wear. My personal opinion is that, unless you want to have to explain why your model looks like it has a case of the measles, I'd say stick with the "Art" of "normal" chipping hues--in this case, the onus of having to explain your red chips everywhere just wouldn't be worth the extremely dubious "historical accuracy"!
404NotFound
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 03:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The one thing on this Stug that really puzzles me is that red on the Balkenkreuz, it makes no sense at all. I can't imagine that the white would have deteriorated completely down to the primer, since than it should have also deteriorated the Dunkel Gelb inderneath.


Ok, off the original subject guys, but since it's been brought up; concerning the red Balkenkreuz, there is solid evidence of red outlined BK's in use late in the war. It certainly wasn't widespread, but I've seen pics of at least one late (no zim) Panther G with one, a few Panzer IV's, and this Stug. I also have a good clear color pic of a piece of Panzer IV turret schurtzen, recovered post war, where the red around the BK is very plain to see. The origins, where's and why's of this have been discussed elsewhere, but as far as I know, no conclusion(s) have been reached.

Cheers,
Mike



Could you direct me to some of these discussions? Any links?

Now, there are some possibilities for you "What If?" and late-war guys...

Great stuff here. Nice, polite conversation (for the most part anyway ). Keep it coming!
Kelley
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 04:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Could you direct me to some of these discussions? Any links?

Now, there are some possibilities for you "What If?" and late-war guys...

Great stuff here. Nice, polite conversation (for the most part anyway ). Keep it coming!


George, I know at least one of the forums is now defunct. Try a search on the Missing Links Axis dg, I'm pretty sure it's been brought up there too. I'd check myself but I'm at work and our firewall won't let me access ML . I will take a look later this evening when I get home.

Mike
wbill76
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 04:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Balkenkreuz has a serious gash through it, from left low, through the centre. Is that showing (oxidised) bare metal, or primer?



Henk,

Considering the contrast between the gash and the red primer painted exhaust below it, I think it's bare metal showing through and not primer...especially considering the relative depth of the gash.


Quoted Text

To me, the primer red looks consistent with rust colored paints--pretty darn red in direct light but almost dark brown in indirect light. The Finnish Stug shots were taken outside on an overcast day, with diffused sunlight giving good illumination. This Fort Knox Stug was photographed inside in poor light using a (not very powerful) flash.

I would like to see a close-up, well lit photo of a vertical surface suspected to be schokoladenbraun, to see if it is wearing off and the primer showing through. Or are the those areas wearing to bare metal?



Doug,

You raise some interesting points...take a look at this series of pictures of one of the "bog" StuGs...and how much the tone of the red oxide color shifts in relation to the angle of the lighting/flash and the lens. The exposed/oxidized section of metal in the middle provides an interesting comparison as well.







There are vertical section showing the Rotbraun sections at the rear where you can also see some contrast between it and exposed primer on other sections...but the Rotbraun itself doesn't appear to have primer exposed in its areas in these shots. You can see contrast on the mufflers which appear to have been painted in red oxide (the right side muffler has bare metal exposed as the darker patches in its middle) and also on the damaged tow pintles.





As far as contrast in the interior...look at this shot of the ammo rack and compare it to the same shot in Karl's photos earlier...here it appears as a much darker shade, the only thing that changed is the top down angle vs. the front-on angle (and of course different camera, lighting, etc.). The fact that the interior also appears to be finished in elfenbein likely puts this one outside the time period of the possible use of primer in the camo scheme although not conclusive all by itself.



Returning to the vertical surfaces, there are also these shots below. It seems to me that the darker patch of Rotbraun just below the cupola on the superstructure side is showing hints of Dunkelgelb showing through...same thing on the second photo which shows more of a closeup of the superstructure rear. Combine this with the shots of the unit insignia and I'm inclined to believe this vehicle was base coated in Dunkelgelb and then had the camo field applied to where it looks now.





Moving in for a closer look on the fender...you can see areas of Rotbraun where the red primer has shown through on the curved edge...there's just enough contrast to show the difference in the two colors. Same thing with the patch of olivegreen...it too has been worn down to the point where primer is showing, probably due to foot traffic from visitors to the museum.







thedoog
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 04:15 AM UTC
Awesome pics, Bill!
Thanks for posting them!
wbill76
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 04:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Awesome pics, Bill!
Thanks for posting them!



My pleasure doog...I updated the pic on the fender with some pointers to show what I mean about the color contrasts.
404NotFound
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 04:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'd check myself but I'm at work and our firewall won't let me access ML . I will take a look later this evening when I get home.

Mike



You could try accessing ML through hidemyass.com
Kelley
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 05:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'd check myself but I'm at work and our firewall won't let me access ML . I will take a look later this evening when I get home.

Mike



You could try accessing ML through hidemyass.com


Nope still can't get through, we have a very good firewall .
404NotFound
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 06:20 AM UTC
Oh well... There are a whole bunch of proxy servers out there. Maybe you could find a different one that works.

In any case, I did try to search ML. I searched on "Balkenkreuz." Nothing.
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 06:16 AM UTC
Interesting exposed versus dug-in wear on a paintjob:

Vomag JagdPanzer IV:





Even the later Soviet Green is worn of, but it seems this was applied AFTER the vehicle was dug in to be used as some sort of pillbox/fixed gun position.

And some old Rot Oxid:

404NotFound
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:44 AM UTC
What If? Panther F build

Nice build, but find the escape hatch in green somewhat "unrealistic" even for a "What If?" in that the escape hatches were cut from the same armor plate as the turret rear. Hard to imagine the scenario: "Say Klaus, let us paint this hatch, but we will leave the turret in primer!"

Still very nice, and I always enjoy seeing anyone's Panther F builds.
Jamesite
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 04:20 AM UTC
This is a great thread,

To me this is a big part of what Armorama is all about and so am really enojoying all the shared opinions and evidence posted.
I've read every post and have come to the following (personal) conclusions.

1. The balkenkreuz and dog head unit emblem are indeed in 'numbers red' its far too glossy to be primer.

2. I don't beleive that the stug in question had primer as part of it's paint scheme. What we are seeing is wear exposing it; a combination of thinner paint being applied later in the war and clambering crew/museum visitors, exactly like the panther shown earlier.

3. I don't beleive for a second the colour that the afrikakorps site gives as primer red is correct. It may be down to the colour being warped via printing and pc screen etc. but i'm not inclined to beleive it based on the photo reference. Looking at the wide variety of sources and camera types and photo angles, lighting etc. that all show a fairly bright matt red, regardless of the type of weathering it has been subjected to, this to me is the Primer red in question.

4. Based on the above point, and particularly Herberts information about red being disallowed in unit emblems (although I do question why then was it allowed in ID no.s?) I stand by my earlier point that no crew or factory would beleive for a second that bright red would be a good idea for a camouflage colour. It may have been ordered (although Herbert goes some way to discount this) but I cannot beleive any self respecting panzer commander would go into battle with primer red, and would go to lengths to cover it, either with scrounged paint or even mud, making the possibility very unlikely IMHO.
The only possible exception I would think would be under extreme circumstances (ie. the last days of the war, where no records were kept or photos taken, and there was no time to paint the tanks properly. However, I know Herbert can provide plenty of evidence that Tiger B's left fully painted right to the end, so again I find it dubious.

5. Regardless of all the above points, I still think models like that Panther F look great, if you are happy to turn a blind eye to historical integrity and embrace artistic license!


James
Braille
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:56 AM UTC
Karl,

Yup! No choice! Thanks you brought up some very sound reasons for not painting the chips in the Rot Oxide primer color. Have you checked out the paint chipping in Adam Wilders Panther F? However, sooner or later things will change the way we practice our art because of the huge amount of information that is shared by people just like you here on the net!


Quoted Text

This is a great thread, To me this is a big part of what Armorama is all about and so am really enojoying all the shared opinions and evidence posted.

James



Lots of great photos and excellent topic keep the information coming!

-Eddy
thedoog
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 03:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Have you checked out the paint chipping in Adam Wilders Panther F?


-Eddy

Absolutely!
Adam's Panther F rules the school!
baker24
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 05:49 PM UTC
This has been a very interesting thread. I have seen the StuG IIIG in question, in 1973, and it carried all the markings as you see them in these pictures. The vehicle is a late StuG III G and is from the 116th PzGren Div, the "Windhund" (Greyhound) Division. When I saw it, many of the vehicles were outdoors and the colors showed up better than they do here. One of the problems in researching the later war production information is that some of it didn't survive, and in other cases, schedules were changed or delays in deliveries of components resulted in mixed production: later vehicles with earlier details and factory rebuilds of older vehicles often added new details to those.

The kicker for me was the letter written in 1945 by the German Air Ministry (RLM) to the paint manufacturers noting the shortages and difficulties they were having, and asking them to do the best that they could in maintaining standards. What this letter meant was that while the paint makers may have tried to match the color specs, they were being allowed leeway due to the shortages and other problems they faced. Thus, from early 1945, it simply is unrealistic to talk about rigid color standards for German aircraft paints. It is known that there were colors used on German aircraft in the late war period that never appeared on an RAL color chip. Indeed, the paint makers for the most part never received paint chips for the late war colors, only formulas and written color descriptions.

Examination of war trophy vehicles at APG and in the ETO reported the use of a much lighter Dunkelgelb than previously seen, almost a cream tan color. It was not believed at the time that the lighter color was the result of fading, but that it was a different shade of dunkelgelb. Note the light color of the pulled up left mudguard in the above photo of one of the "bog" StuGs - that is the lighter shade of dunkelgelb referred to, or a degraded sample of regular DG that looks like the lighter shade. Perhaps this lighter shade was the result of pigment shortages,or changes to the formula that rendered the paint unstable; I don't know, but while the standard for dunkelgelb may not have changed, the actual color used did. It may have appeared only on some vehicles: paint manufacturers made paint for the factories in their region of Germany or allied country producing weapons and vehicles, so if one manufacturer had trouble making a certain color, it would not affect production in another area of Germany or another country.

Weathering probably was not much of a factor - most German vehicles produced in 1945 had a short expected combat life, and most German paint was of decent quality up to the end of the war, even if the colors may have been off a bit. Everyone was still using lacquers and tough enamels back then and that paint wore quite well compared to modern acrylics. This is a very interesting thread.....
CMOT
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 04:08 AM UTC
While at Bovington today I asked some questions ref this thread, a member of staff went to the workshops and returned with a bracket from the engine bay of the Hetzer. He stated it has not been repainted, and it has the paint on both sides, I know this will not answer the question but hope it is of some benefit.







the 1st picture is in direct daylight pictures 2 and 3 where taken in indirect daylight, and yes my camera stinks.
wbill76
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 08:12 AM UTC
Darren,

Even with the limitations of your camera (don't feel bad! ) the fact that you took photos of it against both a light and a dark shade are what helps immensely. Even against the darker green it shows up as very "red" vs. "brown" in the color tone. Many thanks!
Braille
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 08:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Examination of war trophy vehicles at APG and in the ETO reported the use of a much lighter Dunkelgelb than previously seen, almost a cream tan color. It was not believed at the time that the lighter color was the result of fading, but that it was a different shade of dunkelgelb. Note the light color of the pulled up left mudguard in the above photo of one of the "bog" StuGs - that is the lighter shade of dunkelgelb referred to, or a degraded sample of regular DG that looks like the lighter shade. Perhaps this lighter shade was the result of pigment shortages,or changes to the formula that rendered the paint unstable; I don't know, but while the standard for dunkelgelb may not have changed, the actual color used did. It may have appeared only on some vehicles: paint manufacturers made paint for the factories in their region of Germany or allied country producing weapons and vehicles, so if one manufacturer had trouble making a certain color, it would not affect production in another area of Germany or another country.

Weathering probably was not much of a factor - most German vehicles produced in 1945 had a short expected combat life, and most German paint was of decent quality up to the end of the war, even if the colors may have been off a bit. Everyone was still using lacquers and tough enamels back then and that paint wore quite well compared to modern acrylics. This is a very interesting thread.....
Bruce Culver



Although the color chip as listed in the Africa Korps website may not be correct for the RAL Rot or Rotbruan. Perhaps this may be because it is actually a Red or Red-Brown color and sampled together from many examples to obtain the color chip according to the author at that site. However, I also found this of some interest but did not post this earlier as their are some very addement historians here that will surely have disagreed? Thanks to Bruce for his much appriciated insight and books on this much depated but interesting topic.

Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 (Dark Yellow) from the Africa Korps website:

Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 was included in the original RAL color charts created in 1927 but this was disseminated sometime prior to the start of the second world war.

Dunkelgelb (Dark Yellow / No RAL Number) - Beginning in February / March of 1943.
Dunkelgelb I (Dark Yellow I / RAL 7028) - Slight color change for a few short months in 1943.
Dunkelgelb II (Dark Yellow II / Again No RAL Number) - Slight color change again in 1943 to 1944.
Dunkelgelb II (Dark Yellow II / RAL 7028) - Slight color change once again in 1944 due to the attempts that had started being made in 1943 to 1) regulate the problem of painting equipment anew after the winter in 1943 and 2) to standardize and allow for slight color variances as compared to the RLM / RAL color charts because of the different paint manufactures formulas.

Dunkelgelb I RAL 7028, Dunkelgelb II - No RAL Number & Dunkelgelb II RAL 7028 as listed above are variants of the original color (each one being a different shade of dark yellow). This is only for this paint as applied at the factory. Now try and factor in the amount of different shades of this color when field applied from the issued camouflage paste tins? Lets see what Jentz will inform us about in his upcoming book on camoflage practices?

-Eddy
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 08:42 AM UTC
Glad it helped, I have also spoken to staff who were involved in the Tiger 1 rebuild, and while no original paint remains now they are going to look up pics for me that show the red oxide prior to work taking place. The Tiger 1 does not match the time periods you mention but I hope it will be of help ref this discussion.
wbill76
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Posted: Monday, December 15, 2008 - 04:44 AM UTC
I recently took advantage of an online sale to pick up the Panzer Vor! series of books (1-4) published by Concord in 2006 and authored by Frank De Sisto. I was starting in on the little Introduction text and came across this little bit in the section under "Vehicle Colors and Camoflage" on p.4. To be fair, Mr. De Sisto does state in the very first paragraph on p.3 regarding the text portion in general that "Note however, that my comments are extremely generalized and should only be considered as a very elementary basis for further study."

Here's the section dealing with the inclusion of Red Oxide in paint schemes from Sept of 1944 until the orders changed in December to base coat in olivegrun RAL 6003.



I post this for discussion purposes only and to point out how information gets passed along in print from one publication to another as a way for things to get entrenched and accepted. In this particular case, the De Sisto text makes the case for a four color scheme (RAL 8012, RAL 8017, RAL 7028, RAL 6003) and claims that almost half the vehicle would be left in the primer color. Under his section of "Dedication and Ackknowledgements" he lists the works of Jentz and Doyle (including many of the Panzer Tracts volumes and QFCS), Zaloga's "The Eastern Front, Armor Camoflage and Markings 1941-45", the Missing-Lynx website, and others.

On the surface, that's an impressive array of references to cite...but the Jentz texts presented earlier don't seem to support this...so the question remains...where is the information coming from that is supporting and propagating this?
rinaldi119
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Posted: Monday, December 15, 2008 - 07:18 AM UTC
Hi guys,

In the course of this discussion a series of photos has appeared in the LIFE archives as hosted by Google. This particular series shows three Panzer IVs knocked out in Lanuvio, Italy. One in particular, shows the remnants of red oxide primer in exposed areas, not direct evidence for the "camo" conversation within this thread, but of great interest nonetheless. Note the red carries over to both drive housings and the inside of the right hand sprocket (and would assume the left one as well). My guess is the front armor plate has popped off, and the "F" is also unique looking.

Knocked out Panzer IV

Seeing this and the color museum StuG pics posted above leads me to believe there are indeed instances where exposed parts in red oxide primer were sent into combat, even if in limited form. Whether they left the factory that way or were field replacements, who knows? How it ended up is usually of more interest to me as a modeling subject.

To my last point above, I think it is important to remember when discussing other modeler's work in public, that the decisions of said modeler are theirs alone. Re. Adam's Panther F, never has he said this is how it was. What the model represents is simply his vision of what it could look like it, merely a possibility, if you will. There is a distinct difference when using the words "could" or "might have". Many modelers take these thoughts as artistic license to produce their own work. It is Adam's superb execution of his thoughts and methods that make it worth noting. If your personal goal is 100% historical accuracy, then present your models as such. There is really no right or wrong here. I am sure there are those that would argue otherwise, but in the end it is the satisfaction, goals, and end result for each modeler that will win that argument every time.

Best,

Mike