Hosted by Darren Baker
DML Pz IV F2 Afrika
jimz66
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 1,165 posts
Armorama: 1,105 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 04:49 AM UTC
Looking good Bill. How are you painting this one? What scheme are you going to use?
scratchmod
Joined: November 07, 2008
KitMaker: 796 posts
Armorama: 763 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 05:11 AM UTC
Looking good with the turret on Bil. I can't wait to get my hands on that kit, what kit no. is it by the way?
Rob
Rob
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 05:34 AM UTC
Looking as good as always Bill, would almost say, it's getting boring to see you crank out these magnificent builds and finishes haha!
One thing that just also seems to be getting mythical:
The coaxial MG in no way can be used, on ANY german tank, as an AA-mg, the coax MG is completely different than the regular MG-34 or MG-42 used on the cupola. German tanks were supplied with:
- One MG to fit in the Kugelblende where the radio operator sits
- One Coax next to the gun
- One AA-MG.
Swapping the coax or Kugelblende MG with the AA one is just not possible.
One thing that just also seems to be getting mythical:
Quoted Text
This step also provides the option of installing the coaxial MG sleeve with the barrel present or not...a handy thing if you wanted to show the coaxial MG missing (ad hoc AA mount, wreck that's been picked over, etc.),
The coaxial MG in no way can be used, on ANY german tank, as an AA-mg, the coax MG is completely different than the regular MG-34 or MG-42 used on the cupola. German tanks were supplied with:
- One MG to fit in the Kugelblende where the radio operator sits
- One Coax next to the gun
- One AA-MG.
Swapping the coax or Kugelblende MG with the AA one is just not possible.
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 05:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Nice work Bill!! My computer crashed so I havent been able to see your progress up until now.
I cant wait to see this thing with a bit of paint on it. It amazes me that you can put that much time, effort and tiny little pieces in to this thing without going insane!! I'd be screaming my head off by now!!
Dean, glad you were able to join the party!
My wife often wonders herself how I can do this to stay "sane" when she's convinced it should be having the opposite effect! 
Quoted Text
Nice work Bill.
Really enjoy your SBS blogs, although I don't comment as much as I probably should I do read every one start to finish LOL.
Rick, thanks for the comments and glad that you're following along, I appreciate the interest.
Quoted Text
Looking good Bill. How are you painting this one? What scheme are you going to use?
JimZ, two-tone, RAL 8020 base coat with RAL 7027 1/3 pattern over that.
Quoted Text
Looking good with the turret on Bil. I can't wait to get my hands on that kit, what kit no. is it by the way?
Rob, the catalog number for this one is #6360, I too can't wait to see what you do with this one.
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 06:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Looking as good as always Bill, would almost say, it's getting boring to see you crank out these magnificent builds and finishes haha!
One thing that just also seems to be getting mythical:Quoted TextThis step also provides the option of installing the coaxial MG sleeve with the barrel present or not...a handy thing if you wanted to show the coaxial MG missing (ad hoc AA mount, wreck that's been picked over, etc.),
The coaxial MG in no way can be used, on ANY german tank, as an AA-mg, the coax MG is completely different than the regular MG-34 or MG-42 used on the cupola. German tanks were supplied with:
- One MG to fit in the Kugelblende where the radio operator sits
- One Coax next to the gun
- One AA-MG.
Swapping the coax or Kugelblende MG with the AA one is just not possible.
Thanks Herbert! As for the comment about the turret MG, it was always my understanding that vehicles fitted with an AA mount weren't issued a 3rd MG...that it was a matter of taking the coaxial MG and fitting the stock to it and that's where the "third" MG came from. I'll admit that this is picked up as "CW" information and not from anything I've personally read or heard described, so I'm curious about your statement and the origins of 3 MGs being issued?
The only fundamental differences between the tank mounted MG34 vs. standard MG34 were the armored jacket vs. the standard jacket (on the Kugelblende MG but not the coaxial turret MG) and the stock not being fitted, but otherwise they could be removed from their mounts and were an intact MG34 for all intents and purposes. Can you elaborate as to why you say that the vehicles were in fact issued with a 3rd MG and when did this practice start? I know you wouldn't make this statement without having some concrete evidence to back it up so that's why I'm curious to know the origin.
See pics below for a Pz III mount for the coaxial MG...everything is there (including folded down sights on the internal portion) except for the stock which was removed. Photos are from Osprey's New Vanguard on the Pz III and are posted for discussion purposes only.
wing_nut
Joined: June 02, 2006
KitMaker: 1,212 posts
Armorama: 674 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 07:11 AM UTC
Coming together nicely Bill. Can't wait to see that color combo though.
martyncrowther
Joined: September 12, 2007
KitMaker: 1,548 posts
Armorama: 1,407 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 08:29 AM UTC
Nice work Bill this does look good!
Martyn
Martyn
DT61
Joined: September 18, 2005
KitMaker: 1,226 posts
Armorama: 819 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 08:39 AM UTC
Its comng along very nicely.
Darryl
Darryl
c5flies
Joined: October 21, 2007
KitMaker: 3,684 posts
Armorama: 2,938 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 08:44 AM UTC
Excellent way to spend your 'vacation' time, Bill, looks stunning so far
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 08:58 AM UTC
The statement about 3 MGs supplied can be found in Jentz' Panther and Tiger books.
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 01:41 PM UTC
Marc, Martin, Darryl, James, appreciate the comments.
Herbert, thanks for the source...I don't have any of Jentz' works on the Panther or Tiger in my reference collection (I know such sacrilege!), so I now completely understand your statement about the "myth" of one of the MGs being pulled to do AA duty and it's surprising to me that it's so enduring as the usual statement is "there was no place to stow a 3rd MG" on the vehicle. If they were issued, they had to go somewhere and in the AA mount makes sense if there is indeed no space inside for it.
The fact that DML includes the hollow armored MG port without the barrel in place is a nice extra detail option for those wanting to show the port empty (or use an AM barrel for the MG) for whatever reason.
Herbert, thanks for the source...I don't have any of Jentz' works on the Panther or Tiger in my reference collection (I know such sacrilege!
), so I now completely understand your statement about the "myth" of one of the MGs being pulled to do AA duty and it's surprising to me that it's so enduring as the usual statement is "there was no place to stow a 3rd MG" on the vehicle. If they were issued, they had to go somewhere and in the AA mount makes sense if there is indeed no space inside for it. The fact that DML includes the hollow armored MG port without the barrel in place is a nice extra detail option for those wanting to show the port empty (or use an AM barrel for the MG) for whatever reason.
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 04:07 PM UTC
Today's efforts focused exclusively on painting. I had very good weather (shirt sleeves) so took full advantage of it with a marathon session with the airbrush...even running out of daylight at one point and having to haul out a desk lamp to the garage to finish up!
The initial prep work involved mostly getting the road wheels ready, all 40 of them, by mounting them on wooden toothpicks using blue tack and a couple of night crawler styrofoam boxes that I keep around for that purpose. The turret was also mounted on a handle in the form of a cut-down cardboard tube with a strip of blue painter's tape attached to the top to make it easier to manipulate it during painting. The turret ring is just the right diameter for this so long as the commander's seat isn't mounted...and since I wasn't displaying the interior, that was left off in the build steps deliberately.
All the paints referenced are Model Master II enamels. I began by applying a primer coat of Italian Dark Brown. I used this color because it provides a nice contrast to the light gray plastic to insure there aren't any unpainted areas, it allows for a check of sanding and putty work before committing to the base coat, it applies nice and smooth, and also is a good underlying color for both lighter and darker colors. Enamels have a tendency to "sink in" to one another as they cure, so it also provides a good foundation in that regard.
The base coat of Afrika Braun (RAL 8020 despite the name) was applied in thin multiple passes over the primer coat to slowly build it up and get even coverage.
While that was drying, I also worked on the 40 road wheels, the return rollers, idlers, and sprockets. The rubber portions were first sprayed with Gunmetal as a nice slightly grayish "black" color and allowed to dry. Then, using a draftsman's circle template, I sprayed the hubs with the Afrika Braun. Since there were 40 wheel halves (32 for the suspension, 8 for the spares), this had to be done 80 times (both front and back) so even with the template this took a little bit of time to accomplish. Without the template it would've taken much longer.
Next the camo pattern was applied to the hull and turret using Afrika Dunkelgrau (RAL 7027 despite the name). I thinned this appropriately and dropped the pressure down to around 15 psi and worked very close in to the vehicle surface. Due to the relatively low contrast between the two colors, it was slow going (and why I needed the added light in the garage!) but eventually I got the pattern in the way I wanted it.
Total session time: 6.5 hours
Total time to date: 31.75 hours
Next up will be installing the wheels and working on the details, then it's on to the tracks.
The initial prep work involved mostly getting the road wheels ready, all 40 of them, by mounting them on wooden toothpicks using blue tack and a couple of night crawler styrofoam boxes that I keep around for that purpose. The turret was also mounted on a handle in the form of a cut-down cardboard tube with a strip of blue painter's tape attached to the top to make it easier to manipulate it during painting. The turret ring is just the right diameter for this so long as the commander's seat isn't mounted...and since I wasn't displaying the interior, that was left off in the build steps deliberately.
All the paints referenced are Model Master II enamels. I began by applying a primer coat of Italian Dark Brown. I used this color because it provides a nice contrast to the light gray plastic to insure there aren't any unpainted areas, it allows for a check of sanding and putty work before committing to the base coat, it applies nice and smooth, and also is a good underlying color for both lighter and darker colors. Enamels have a tendency to "sink in" to one another as they cure, so it also provides a good foundation in that regard.
The base coat of Afrika Braun (RAL 8020 despite the name) was applied in thin multiple passes over the primer coat to slowly build it up and get even coverage.
While that was drying, I also worked on the 40 road wheels, the return rollers, idlers, and sprockets. The rubber portions were first sprayed with Gunmetal as a nice slightly grayish "black" color and allowed to dry. Then, using a draftsman's circle template, I sprayed the hubs with the Afrika Braun. Since there were 40 wheel halves (32 for the suspension, 8 for the spares), this had to be done 80 times (both front and back) so even with the template this took a little bit of time to accomplish. Without the template it would've taken much longer.
Next the camo pattern was applied to the hull and turret using Afrika Dunkelgrau (RAL 7027 despite the name). I thinned this appropriately and dropped the pressure down to around 15 psi and worked very close in to the vehicle surface. Due to the relatively low contrast between the two colors, it was slow going (and why I needed the added light in the garage!) but eventually I got the pattern in the way I wanted it.
Total session time: 6.5 hours
Total time to date: 31.75 hours
Next up will be installing the wheels and working on the details, then it's on to the tracks.
SSJugend
Joined: April 02, 2006
KitMaker: 123 posts
Armorama: 111 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 04:21 PM UTC
Bill!! before its too late! The jerry can neck/spout is backwards!!! 
jimz66
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 1,165 posts
Armorama: 1,105 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 04:43 PM UTC
Sure Mr. Texas just rub in that nice weather report. Your in short sleeves and up here in the great white north of CT I am in snow!!!!!!!!!
Anyway very nice job as always. Those road wheels must have taken you forever. Couple more days and I'll be back at the bench too. Take care.
Jimz
Anyway very nice job as always. Those road wheels must have taken you forever. Couple more days and I'll be back at the bench too. Take care.
Jimz
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 05:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Bill!! before its too late! The jerry can neck/spout is backwards!!!
Thanks Russel! It's not too late and will be easy to fix and I appreciate the catch...I'm glad you pointed it out as I've been assembling jerry cans the wrong way for sometime now and didn't know it!
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 05:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Sure Mr. Texas just rub in that nice weather report. Your in short sleeves and up here in the great white north of CT I am in snow!!!!!!!!!
Anyway very nice job as always. Those road wheels must have taken you forever. Couple more days and I'll be back at the bench too. Take care.
Jimz
JimZ, it is one of the few advantages to living in a desert I have to admit...but when the summers are in the 100-110 range you will have the advantage on me then!
I couldn't believe when I was finished up that I actually spent 5 hours straight (just very short breaks when taking the pics) with the airbrush today...and roughly 1.5 hours of that was with the road wheels...it was only a couple of minutes with each one but with 40 that adds up really quick. Glad to hear you'll be back at the bench soon, what are you working on? 
Stormin
Joined: March 09, 2003
KitMaker: 232 posts
Armorama: 149 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 06:13 PM UTC
Hi Bill,
love watching your builds, I like learning from you more experienced guys, it's always a pleasure and a place to aspire to be. I have the Dragon Panzer IV G LAH Div Krakov, it's similair to yours & plan on following sme of your ideas etc. l look forward to building it & showing it here. I just started a build log for my Panther but my cameras broke so will upload my work & look forward to your thoughts & advice.
Kenny.
love watching your builds, I like learning from you more experienced guys, it's always a pleasure and a place to aspire to be. I have the Dragon Panzer IV G LAH Div Krakov, it's similair to yours & plan on following sme of your ideas etc. l look forward to building it & showing it here. I just started a build log for my Panther but my cameras broke so will upload my work & look forward to your thoughts & advice.
Kenny.
jimz66
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 1,165 posts
Armorama: 1,105 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 02:29 AM UTC
I am going to finish my Tiger I for the Eastern Front GB, just needs some tracks and some of that pesky PE you and talked about earlier this week then I can paint.
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 03:55 AM UTC
Kenny,
Thanks for the comments, hope you get your camera situation sorted out soon so we can see more pics of your Panther!
JimZ, I knew you had something cooking but wasn't sure what...sounds like you're close!
Thanks for the comments, hope you get your camera situation sorted out soon so we can see more pics of your Panther!
JimZ, I knew you had something cooking but wasn't sure what...sounds like you're close!
thebear
Joined: November 15, 2002
KitMaker: 3,960 posts
Armorama: 3,579 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 09:12 AM UTC
Hi Bill ....Gosh you don't check out a blog for a week and you miss the whole thing ...Wow you did more in a week than I have time for in 6 months...(lucky you )
Great build and a great start on the painting ...I'm planning the same type of desert scheme for mine when ever I get back to it ...
You're so fast that I didn't have time to point out a few extras that Dragon added to the box but left secret except to those who are members of their fan club...Probably too late for your build but if it can help the others who are planning on the build I'll list the extras ...
1) when adding the hatches for the driver and RO you see Dragon has molded on the padlock locking point but they don't mention you should add the other half of this to the hull ..these are parts number A57 .
2)Dragon has added some half wing nuts (A58)on their sprues but don't tell you add one to each of the panels (E21 and E22) to hold them down on the fenders .
3) When building up the barrel in step 14 or 15 ..On part B40 there is a little square in the front corner ...you should drill a small hole in the middle of that square and add part B47 .
Another little quirk on the instructions is it says to make the tow ropes 150 mm long ...well this is right but thats including the end loops as well ..otherwise when you try to add them to their hooks they don't fit ...
All the other little mistakes have been mentioned so good pick ups on those ..Just wish I had gotten here sooner
Can't wait to see you finish up this one ,I'll be watching .
Rick
Great build and a great start on the painting ...I'm planning the same type of desert scheme for mine when ever I get back to it ...
You're so fast that I didn't have time to point out a few extras that Dragon added to the box but left secret except to those who are members of their fan club...Probably too late for your build but if it can help the others who are planning on the build I'll list the extras ...
1) when adding the hatches for the driver and RO you see Dragon has molded on the padlock locking point but they don't mention you should add the other half of this to the hull ..these are parts number A57 .
2)Dragon has added some half wing nuts (A58)on their sprues but don't tell you add one to each of the panels (E21 and E22) to hold them down on the fenders .
3) When building up the barrel in step 14 or 15 ..On part B40 there is a little square in the front corner ...you should drill a small hole in the middle of that square and add part B47 .
Another little quirk on the instructions is it says to make the tow ropes 150 mm long ...well this is right but thats including the end loops as well ..otherwise when you try to add them to their hooks they don't fit ...
All the other little mistakes have been mentioned so good pick ups on those ..Just wish I had gotten here sooner
Can't wait to see you finish up this one ,I'll be watching .
Rick
ivanhoe6
Joined: April 05, 2007
KitMaker: 2,023 posts
Armorama: 1,234 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 09:29 AM UTC
Thanks Jim, it's looking great so far, can't wait to see the finished project as I have this one in my stash. Because of your build this one moves to the head of the line. I just skim read alot of the posts and didn't see if you were going to "Diorama this baby up", are you? Also thanks on the painting scheme as i have Dragon's Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.E 3-in-1 # 6264 on the bench. I am planing to go AK on this build. Tanks for going down this road a head of me. When I have time I'm going back and make notes about the little hick ups you've encountered along that dusty road. Keep up the good work and thanks again.
martyncrowther
Joined: September 12, 2007
KitMaker: 1,548 posts
Armorama: 1,407 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:12 AM UTC
Nice work! The paint job is really nice! Its great!
Martyn
Martyn
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 11:09 AM UTC
Rick, That's a nice little "easter egg" list of parts and explains some things that I couldn't find a reason for...the little lifting eye on the gun mantlet in particular is very well hidden on the sprues! These are indeed too late for me to take advantage of, but there's always the F1 still waiting and I'm sure they show up there too!
Ivanhoe, who's Jim? No I don't have any diorama plans for this one. Glad this will be of help to you regarding the scheme but be aware that the Pz IV E is a whole different animal as a "Super Kit" vs. this one which is a "Smart Kit". I've built the IV E and it's a much more intricate/involved kit, so this log won't help you too much there I'm afraid.
Martyn, thanks for the comments and glad you like it.
Quoted Text
Thanks Jim, it's looking great so far, can't wait to see the finished project as I have this one in my stash. Because of your build this one moves to the head of the line. I just skim read alot of the posts and didn't see if you were going to "Diorama this baby up", are you? Also thanks on the painting scheme as i have Dragon's Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.E 3-in-1 # 6264 on the bench. I am planing to go AK on this build. Tanks for going down this road a head of me. When I have time I'm going back and make notes about the little hick ups you've encountered along that dusty road. Keep up the good work and thanks again.
Ivanhoe, who's Jim?
No I don't have any diorama plans for this one. Glad this will be of help to you regarding the scheme but be aware that the Pz IV E is a whole different animal as a "Super Kit" vs. this one which is a "Smart Kit". I've built the IV E and it's a much more intricate/involved kit, so this log won't help you too much there I'm afraid. Martyn, thanks for the comments and glad you like it.
Kelley
Joined: November 21, 2002
KitMaker: 1,966 posts
Armorama: 1,635 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 11:54 AM UTC
Hi Bill very nice work here, and not just on the model, but the pics and how you lay out everything you've done in the posts (must take notes )
I have a question and a comment; The question isn't really related to this particular kit, but your builds in general. In several places I note you said you used "regular glue then liquid glue." By regular glue do you mean tube glue or what? I'm just curious really . My comment is for you and Herbert also, it has been my understanding for a while now that German tanks were issued 2 MG's. One for the bow gunner and one as co-axel to the main gun, when needed one of these two could be removed and used as an AA gun top side. Herbert I have gone through my Jentz books on the Panther & Tiger(s) and found the following; In "Panther Tank TQFCS" & "D.W. to Tiger I", two MG34's were issued along with one machine pistol for personal use by the crew. Now in "V.K.45.02 to Tiger II" it does say the tanks were issued with three MG34/42's, one for AA use. So it looks as if maybe this was something done either later in the war, or just for the Tiger II. (sorry to go off track here Bill, keep up the good work! )
Cheers,
Mike
)I have a question and a comment; The question isn't really related to this particular kit, but your builds in general. In several places I note you said you used "regular glue then liquid glue." By regular glue do you mean tube glue or what? I'm just curious really
. My comment is for you and Herbert also, it has been my understanding for a while now that German tanks were issued 2 MG's. One for the bow gunner and one as co-axel to the main gun, when needed one of these two could be removed and used as an AA gun top side. Herbert I have gone through my Jentz books on the Panther & Tiger(s) and found the following; In "Panther Tank TQFCS" & "D.W. to Tiger I", two MG34's were issued along with one machine pistol for personal use by the crew. Now in "V.K.45.02 to Tiger II" it does say the tanks were issued with three MG34/42's, one for AA use. So it looks as if maybe this was something done either later in the war, or just for the Tiger II. (sorry to go off track here Bill, keep up the good work! )Cheers,
Mike
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 12:40 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Bill very nice work here, and not just on the model, but the pics and how you lay out everything you've done in the posts (must take notes
I have a question and a comment; The question isn't really related to this particular kit, but your builds in general. In several places I note you said you used "regular glue then liquid glue." By regular glue do you mean tube glue or what? I'm just curious really
Thanks Mike! I use two kinds of glue normally, the "regular" glue is the stuff that Testors puts out in their black bottle with the funky little wire applicator (which I never use). It's really no different than tube glue but is more manageable in this container...I cut the opaque tip off and use a clear tip (also by Testors) instead to control the glue. The other glue is Testors liquid glue.
Quoted Text
My comment is for you and Herbert also, it has been my understanding for a while now that German tanks were issued 2 MG's. One for the bow gunner and one as co-axel to the main gun, when needed one of these two could be removed and used as an AA gun top side. Herbert I have gone through my Jentz books on the Panther & Tiger(s) and found the following; In "Panther Tank TQFCS" & "D.W. to Tiger I", two MG34's were issued along with one machine pistol for personal use by the crew. Now in "V.K.45.02 to Tiger II" it does say the tanks were issued with three MG34/42's, one for AA use. So it looks as if maybe this was something done either later in the war, or just for the Tiger II. (sorry to go off track here Bill, keep up the good work!
Herbert will have to answer this one as to which Jentz source he used for the Panther and the Tiger being issued 3 MGs...so far as I'm aware, it wasn't standard to issue 3 MGs to Pz IIIs and IVs although later IVs (and even some III Ms had non-standard MG mounts) such as the J were fitted with the cupola mount...I don't know if that time they would've been given a 3rd MG as part of their standard complement of equipment. You don't see very many photos of vehicles with the MG in place on the cupola, so it had to be stored somehwere else if not in the mount and I don't know where in the interior of a Pz IV it would be possible to stow an extra. Possibly in the rear turret box, but that's just speculation on my part. I've always operated under the same understanding you have Mike regarding the number of MGs and where they came from. I'll have to look back through the spec sheets on armament for the III and IV to see if something changed in the later variants and just never noticed it.
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