The markings could be done with 2 different size star masks/stencils could they not? What about the numbers?
Also, would these be "russian green" with these markings?
Sorry for the questions as usual, read my signature. THANKS!
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Russian or Soviet vehicles/armor modeling forum.
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Dragon 1/35 Hummel - Russian Captured
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 03:12 PM UTC
Can this be done accurately with the kit I'm talking about.
The markings could be done with 2 different size star masks/stencils could they not? What about the numbers?
Also, would these be "russian green" with these markings?
Sorry for the questions as usual, read my signature. THANKS!
The markings could be done with 2 different size star masks/stencils could they not? What about the numbers?
Also, would these be "russian green" with these markings?
Sorry for the questions as usual, read my signature. THANKS!
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 03:50 PM UTC
I'm almost positive this is the kit:
And i Just read that March 7, 1945 was the day of the Germans "last major" offensive. and a few days later on March 16, the Soviets launche their counter attack, am I right so far?
Could the above Hummels, which are dated 1945, possibly be Russian 27th Army. Or at least close enough that I can use this as a good starting point?
And i Just read that March 7, 1945 was the day of the Germans "last major" offensive. and a few days later on March 16, the Soviets launche their counter attack, am I right so far?
Could the above Hummels, which are dated 1945, possibly be Russian 27th Army. Or at least close enough that I can use this as a good starting point?
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 09:21 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Also, would these be "russian green" with these markings?
Hi Jaredt
Actually there are two different color interpretations
4bo green (lower hull left in original german scheme)
German dark yelloy (?)In my opinion (NB is just my humble opinion) the Hummels were overpainted in russian green
Here the sources
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/galleries/axiscaptured/axiscaptured_SPG_img.htm
http://www.wio.ru/tank/capt/capt.htm
Markings were made on field so most likely they have different sizes
The source sais those Hummel SP guns operated by the Separate SP gun battalion of the 27th Army, near. Lake Balaton. Hungary, in March 1945.
I hope this is useful for you
Cheers
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 12:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In my opinion (NB is just my humble opinion) the Hummels were overpainted in russian green
The source sais those Hummel SP guns operated by the Separate SP gun battalion of the 27th Army, near. Lake Balaton. Hungary, in March 1945.
What do you mean by over-painted? If I was to do the green, its just a German Hummel with the added green paint, save for the lower hull?
So I was on the right track. These would have been used by Russian in the counter-attack against the Germans, to end WWII, yes?
Minsk94
Joined: June 16, 2008
KitMaker: 418 posts
Armorama: 408 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 07:24 AM UTC
Most likely they were re-painted into "Russian green". Sometimes captured vehicles were left in original German camo, but they were attracting fire of Soviet guns. So they would be repainted when it was possible.
Stars - red with white outline. Numbers - had no tactical meanings. It was kind of inventory number of captured vehicles in service.
The vehicles belonged to independent regiments in 27th Army that didn't even had a regiment number. They were send into the battle on March 7. There were 8 Hummels and 6 Nashorns. All were lost by March 9. (page 53, 55)
There is also a recollections by captain M.Panin (page 52), who mentions that they were painted into green or green with brown during a summer, and white in a winter. Green painting was very through and accurate while winter white - sluppy to give it "a dirty look".
The source:
"Trophies in Red Army"
Stars - red with white outline. Numbers - had no tactical meanings. It was kind of inventory number of captured vehicles in service.
The vehicles belonged to independent regiments in 27th Army that didn't even had a regiment number. They were send into the battle on March 7. There were 8 Hummels and 6 Nashorns. All were lost by March 9. (page 53, 55)
There is also a recollections by captain M.Panin (page 52), who mentions that they were painted into green or green with brown during a summer, and white in a winter. Green painting was very through and accurate while winter white - sluppy to give it "a dirty look".
The source:
"Trophies in Red Army"
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 08:27 AM UTC
So in theory it could be:
All yellow, interior and exterior.
Green upper hull, yellow lower (interior yellow or green if repainted?)
Yellow with "winter white wash"
or Green with "winter white wash"
They sound like the Russians used Hummels like smash up derby cars. If they had 'em lying around they just drove them into the ground. Do I almost have artistic license as far as colours go?
All yellow, interior and exterior.
Green upper hull, yellow lower (interior yellow or green if repainted?)
Yellow with "winter white wash"
or Green with "winter white wash"
They sound like the Russians used Hummels like smash up derby cars. If they had 'em lying around they just drove them into the ground. Do I almost have artistic license as far as colours go?
Nito74
Joined: March 04, 2008
KitMaker: 5,386 posts
Armorama: 4,727 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 09:02 AM UTC
I guess Jaredt that your guess might be right, paint it like a German tank then apply the russian green over the hull and yes, get creative ! 
Remember to remove the german equipment, small guns that are provided with the kit. Add some russian gear, helmets, pistol and/or machine guns
Remember to remove the german equipment, small guns that are provided with the kit. Add some russian gear, helmets, pistol and/or machine guns
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 09:39 AM UTC
Good thing you mentioned about the Russian helmets/tools/weapons, I might have totally overlooked that. Got too caught up in the excitement! 
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 11:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What do you mean by over-painted? If I was to do the green, its just a German Hummel with the added green paint, save for the lower hull?
So I was on the right track. These would have been used by Russian in the counter-attack against the Germans, to end WWII, yes?
Likely the tanks were painted on field, not in a factory. Is rather logical to immagine that the russians painted in green the Hummels in a roughly and hasty way, leaving the original color on the tracks wheels and on the interiors surfaces.They painted just the tank parts....which the brush (or maybe the broom.) reached easily.
There are other exemples of "partial repainting":
Those Panther belonged to the 8th Guard Tank Corps, near Praga (Warsaw's suburb) in August 1944
In the drawings you can notice that just the turret was repainted in 4bo green
Anyway, of course, is just a reconstruction because the pics unfortunately are just in B&W.
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 11:23 AM UTC
Thanks again. I'll go ahead and assume I've got free-range on this project.
I love the 4bo green on the top of the hull, and the yellow on the bottom half/wheels. Would the interior stay yellow? Looks like it doesn't matter now that I've seen all these pictures of repainted armor.
I love the 4bo green on the top of the hull, and the yellow on the bottom half/wheels. Would the interior stay yellow? Looks like it doesn't matter now that I've seen all these pictures of repainted armor.
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 11:37 AM UTC
I'm glad to helped you a little bit
In my opinion the interior were yellow except the gun....But you have to decide were the green will end and the yellow will begin
Have fun!
In my opinion the interior were yellow except the gun....But you have to decide were the green will end and the yellow will begin
Have fun!
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 11:58 AM UTC
Yeah I saw a Syrian Hummel that was green with a yellow interior and it looked like it was almost masked.
I'm not sure if I'll a) mask it, b) let the AB fade the green out, or c) brush paint where the green ends, and make it kind of sloppy looking, as per the "repaint in the field." Sound gouda?
I'm not sure if I'll a) mask it, b) let the AB fade the green out, or c) brush paint where the green ends, and make it kind of sloppy looking, as per the "repaint in the field." Sound gouda?
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 13, 2011 - 07:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Yeah I saw a Syrian Hummel that was green with a yellow interior and it looked like it was almost masked.
I'm not sure if I'll a) mask it, b) let the AB fade the green out, or c) brush paint where the green ends, and make it kind of sloppy looking, as per the "repaint in the field." Sound gouda?
Me too I've seen that very nice Hummel.
Well,in my opinion your Hummel are going to look very similar (except, of course for the 4bo green and for the insignias).
In my humble opinion you should replicate in scale the real process.Firstable you should paint your tank in dark yellow and then you should overpaint it in russian green masking the interiors and the lower hull parts.
If I was you I adopted (very carefully) the salt technique to simulate a chipping in yellow. I immagine the green coat applied on field wasn't too proof, so probably near the edges or in general in the wornest zones, it strpped away showing the undercoat in german yellow.
If you look at the first drawing which I posted, you can notice that the drawer has depicted this effect
I'm very curious to see your model
Cheers
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 01:51 AM UTC
Thanks for some more input. I'm not sure about the salt technique though. I know some people seem to use it to their advantage and get awesome results but I'm not quite sure how to do it so well. I tried it once but failed.
I'll read up on it and maybe add it to my bag of tricks for this build.
I'll read up on it and maybe add it to my bag of tricks for this build.
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 02:35 AM UTC
The salt technique is actually rather easy but anyway I understand your worries
Otherwise, you can use the maskol.
You'll paint the tank in german yellow. When the first coat will be cured, you'll mask all the parts that you want leave in yellow.
Then put with a small brush or with a toothpick some dots in maskol just where you want to show the underpainted layer. After the maskol will be dried, you'll apply the 4bo green coat.
When the green will be cured, you'll remove the maskol.
Is more difficult to say it than do it
Otherwise, you can use the maskol.
You'll paint the tank in german yellow. When the first coat will be cured, you'll mask all the parts that you want leave in yellow.
Then put with a small brush or with a toothpick some dots in maskol just where you want to show the underpainted layer. After the maskol will be dried, you'll apply the 4bo green coat.
When the green will be cured, you'll remove the maskol.
Is more difficult to say it than do it
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 04:18 AM UTC
The "salt" technique only really works if you use oil based paints. Using acrylics or Tamiya paints tend to not work.
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 07:05 AM UTC
http://tanksandthings.niceboard.net/t2704-using-salt-for-weathering
http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=17693
http://mastermodels.blogspot.com/2010/09/shallow-crossing-paiting.html
http://www.modelingtime.com/2010/08/salt-chipping-tecnique-invecchiamento-con-la-tecnica-del-sale/
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/101646&page=1
I hope this will be useful for you Jaredt
http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=17693
http://mastermodels.blogspot.com/2010/09/shallow-crossing-paiting.html
http://www.modelingtime.com/2010/08/salt-chipping-tecnique-invecchiamento-con-la-tecnica-del-sale/
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/101646&page=1
I hope this will be useful for you Jaredt
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 07:28 AM UTC
Awwwesome! I like the Maskol technique, seems a little more "fool proof" if you will.
Bookmarked a few of the links though, thanks again.
Bookmarked a few of the links though, thanks again.
Spiderfrommars
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 07:56 AM UTC
Jaredt add also this
http://www.swannysmodels.com/Salting.html
and this
http://mastermodels.blogspot.com/2011/01/vw-van-painting-begins.html
Jacques, i'm sorry, would you excuse me, but i haven't seen your post.
What do you mean for "oil based paints"?
Tanks in advance for your explication
http://www.swannysmodels.com/Salting.html
and this
http://mastermodels.blogspot.com/2011/01/vw-van-painting-begins.html
Quoted Text
The "salt" technique only really works if you use oil based paints. Using acrylics or Tamiya paints tend to not work.
Jacques, i'm sorry, would you excuse me, but i haven't seen your post.
What do you mean for "oil based paints"?
Tanks in advance for your explication
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 08:23 AM UTC
Then because this is a captured piece of armor would I not have to...
base coat(german tanks colour under the yellow?), salt, yellow, then make those chips by taking the salt off, then more salt, and 4bo green
...ultimately this would mean some chips from the 4bo green could show the german yellow but also might have a chip from when it was in german service underneath.
Or am I just going way overboard now?
base coat(german tanks colour under the yellow?), salt, yellow, then make those chips by taking the salt off, then more salt, and 4bo green
...ultimately this would mean some chips from the 4bo green could show the german yellow but also might have a chip from when it was in german service underneath.
Or am I just going way overboard now?
melonhead
Joined: July 29, 2010
KitMaker: 662 posts
Armorama: 457 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 08:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
me, personally, i would be doing this. however, i would not go overboard. very little amount to show that it is an overcoat of the original color. i personally would go very subtle. almost to the point where there was almost no chipping other than the edges and corners. and possibly some scratches horizontally that show an under coatThen because this is a captured piece of armor would I not have to...
base coat(german tanks colour under the yellow?), salt, yellow, then make those chips by taking the salt off, then more salt, and 4bo green
...ultimately this would mean some chips from the 4bo green could show the german yellow but also might have a chip from when it was in german service underneath.
Or am I just going way overboard now?
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 09:50 AM UTC
I think I'd like to use the salt method for sides, edges, heavy traffic areas, and either paint, or paint on some maskall when i do the salt, for the scratches. Then everything can be taken off and chips and scratches will both be done and I can go ahead and finish everything else.
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 09:50 AM UTC
What I mean is simply that Acrylics and whatever Tamiya really falls under (laquer?) have a negative effect on the salt vs. typical oil based paints (non acrylic hobby paint, like Model Masters line etc...)
I was experimenting with the salt technique back when it first came out as a new technique and had a devil of a time with it doing white wash. Well, several of us online figured it had to be because I was using Acrylic paint and the salt was partially dissolving into the paint. I have not tried it with oils, but everyone I have seen/read about getting a good result out of this tech has used oil paints for the layers OVER the salt. (I guess I should be specific about that...)
I was experimenting with the salt technique back when it first came out as a new technique and had a devil of a time with it doing white wash. Well, several of us online figured it had to be because I was using Acrylic paint and the salt was partially dissolving into the paint. I have not tried it with oils, but everyone I have seen/read about getting a good result out of this tech has used oil paints for the layers OVER the salt. (I guess I should be specific about that...)
Thivi11
Joined: January 12, 2011
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 158 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 10:25 AM UTC
I'd hate to turn this into a different thread so for the sake of reference:
This a Nashorn correct? And the difference between that and the Hummel are strictly the armament or...?
This a Nashorn correct? And the difference between that and the Hummel are strictly the armament or...?
melonhead
Joined: July 29, 2010
KitMaker: 662 posts
Armorama: 457 posts
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2011 - 10:34 AM UTC
armor on nashorn is 10mm thicker starting out. weapon on a nashorn is bigger in diameter. i believe the barrel is noticeably longer as well.
by looking at the barrel in the pic. it seems to extend alot further than what a hummel would. i would say its a nashorn.
almost forgot. a hummel didnt have a muzzle brake. the photo shows a muzzle brake which, the nashorn did have
by looking at the barrel in the pic. it seems to extend alot further than what a hummel would. i would say its a nashorn.
almost forgot. a hummel didnt have a muzzle brake. the photo shows a muzzle brake which, the nashorn did have
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