Some interesting (not to mention confusing!!) pictures there. Everyone has made some good points about the whys and why nots of T-64 deployment by the Russians. They could be Ukranian tanks on the way out of Crimea of course. But would the Russians really be willing to help send tanks back to the Ukraine with the prospect they could be used against them at some point, hopefully not obviously, but still it has to be a consideration. Why would they help send them back if there was even a slight possibility they could be used against them?

As for Andre's theory about a Marine/Naval Infantry unit I have to say I personally lean towards that- as you also pointed out Andre there is an anchor like symbol in the Luna light. The last known users of the T-64 in the Russian military I read about were the Naval Infantry- and there likely would be some Marines in Crimea even before this crisis. Those tanks could very well be Russian Naval Infantry.

I personally wouldn't rule out any particular scenario- they could very well be Ukranian or some other branch of the Russian military. Like I said, confusing and interesting.

SLAVA YKPAIHA, INDEED!!! Being of Ukrainian descent, I've got a good mind to get rid of any and all of my SOVIET & RUSSIAN 1/35 and 1/48 stuff. Why can't the Russians leave us alone..?

Then send all your stuff to me Dennis, I would give them a good home. i know I broke that rule once myself, but no one here wants to start political debates. There are at least two stories to each conflict. If you want to debate with me thats fine, write me a PM. If not, thats even finer.

André, good point about the T-64's

All the best,
Andreas

Thanks Andreas.....greatly appreciated.
Jason.

About those T-64's pics, until new evidence/references arise, we might consider the caption of one of the pictures at militaryphotos site -even when once in a while the captions there are not the most accurate- :

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?236632-This-Week-s-Photos-Sunday-March-23rd-Saturday-March-29th-2014/page4

Caption clearly says: "A Russian soldier (L) guides a Ukrainian tank, which is to be loaded onto a train, in northern Crimea March 27, 2014. (photo by Yannis Behrakis)"

This

The tanks are Ukrainian tanks,Russia is returning them back the
Ukraine.

Russia is only keeping some Ukrainian Navy ships


Net Photo

I have truly enjoyed these images of this newly developed conflict!

Does anyone have the 2008 Georgian thread? I lost all that when I switched out PC's.





Jeff

Sven
Thanks so much for the photos. They may inspire many a BTR and BMP build.
Also, makes me anticipate Trumpeter's forthcoming T--64BV as a basis for a Ukranian tank.
Bill Winkes

These pics have definitley inspired me in my GAZ Tiger build!

The cows are not looking very disturbed are they However it does give ideas for displays

Thats pretty nice of them does Russia not have enough ships of their own. Or are the ones they want more advanced and newer than their Own ships. In some way I do understand their fear of losing their big Black Sea base but they could have come up with a better deal than a out right take over but be sure they are betting on a bunch of fist waving and little else from the West? Sorry if its a little off topic I just donot understand taking ships while returning Armour!

When I hit the lotto jackpot I'm definitely importing a Tiger here to the states!

After looking at the pictures in the link posted in militar net (they have beter definition), one thing became obvious to me: the tanks being transported by train and the ones loaded on buses are from different units and seem to have nothing to do with each other.

The tanks loaded on buses (being driven by Russian soldiers) have a 3 tone camuflage (including blue) and the luna projector shows a unit symbol with na anchor(that symbol is probably the key to determine to whom the tanks belong).

The tanks loaded on the train are monocolor and have a number in the luna projector.

I keep thinking that the tanks in three colour camuflage are Russian (already explained why and I'm not going to reapeat the arguments again)and I doubt that the Russian's would allow the Ukrainians to extricate their militar assets from the Krimea, specially at a time the tension is going high between the two countries.
Further more, the Russians didn't just took a few vessels from the Ukranians, they took all vessels they could take (officially through the self-defense forces) including Ukrania's only submarime (as far as I know it was the only one).

I will still add a few more comments that I think are relevant to the discution.

On what concerns the captions on the site, probably anyone that had to research some piece of news of international repercussion found out that the diferente news agencies tend to repeat the same news with the same imprecisions.
That doesn't happen by accident, contrary to popular believe most news agencies don't have the means to have reporters on the spot (and when they have, often reporters know nothing about what they are reporteing: that's why they weren't able to ascertain that the uniformed men were Russian Federation troops and not a local militia) and some news are just repeated by everyone else after being circulated by just one source of information.

Then Russia is going to huge efforts to disguize its intervention in the Krimea, even sending troops without unit badges and with faces covered to have enough deniability to say that it was just the work os a self defense krimean militia.

So, I think it is quite plausible that the captions to the pictures have little to do with the reallity they are supposed to discribe, specially if they show Russian troops entering Krimea.

Then I think that some of us are just resisting the idea of the tanks being Russian because of some assumptions, not sound knowledge of real confirmed info/intel, but just assumptions: the assumption that Russians already scrapped their T-64; the assumption that Russian's don't use Ukrainian material; the assumption that there is some sort of nationalistic complex that was responsible for Russian to just start using "Russian".

We should keep a open mind about this.

For the moment I stick to the hypotesis (just an hypotesis; I don't hold a definitive truth) that those tanks belong to the Russian black berets and that they have been in assigned with them for long.

If anyone has some peace of relevant information to share (namely the identification of the badge on the luna projectors), please do.

Best regards,

ukrainian naval infantry


Net Photo

They aren't using those. Modern day Russian tankies have almost allergic reaction to Kharkov and Leningrad tank designs. These are T-64BVs from 64th Separate Armor Battalion whose entire staff pledged allegiance to separatist Crimean and then Russian regime in early March. If media is to be trusted, they are in really bad shape, many have failed rangefinders and other vital components. These tanks are being returned to Ukraine proper, the unit is apparently getting re-equipped with T-72BA3s after they finish retraining. Info from militaryphotos.net.


The decision to return most of the boats has been made. They will give back that old Foxtrot sub and few minesweepers. Raptucha class landing vessels will be sent to St.Petersburg for refits and absorbed by Black Sea Fleet.

Thank you George.

It is hard to get the idea across how much animosity that is between Russia and Ukraine about tanks. Russia's decision for the T-90 is partly political with Ukraine, and T-62/T-72's are cheap/easy to use in anything but the most modern military encounter.

Ukrainian navy was never in very good shape, they had no money to run it properly, so whatever the Russians got, it will not be in great shape.

T-64's back to Ukraine? Why not? Russians see them as inferior junk (true or not) and will be quite happy to "deposit" them in Ukraines new doorstep, and it is a slap in Kharkov's face as well.

Hello!

Geof, could you please provide more info about that shield?
I'm not saying that that isn't the symbol of the Ukrainian marines, but the symbol I know is completely different (an anchor with a sword over it, not a Griffon).

I know there is a site that has all symbols of Russian, Ukrainian and Bielorussian militar units (I downloaded a file with them ages ago, but lost it when I changed computer). Anyone knows this site? I can't find it now.

The questions raised here made me check the Ukrainian naval ORBAT -- probably that would be the most inteligente thing to do in the first place -- after doing it all I can say is that I found no tanks in their companies.
Maybe the data I accessed is not correct, but couldn't find any tanks assigned to them.

Best regards,

George and Jaques, great information! Thank you

On what concerns allergic reactions of Russians towards Ukrainian tank designs truth is that I never saw that.

As far as I know, the primary reason that led to Russia taking the T-80's from active service (they weren't sold out, nor scrapped) had to do with the motorization of these tanks (the turbine motors generate a high fuel comsumption, are difficult to mantain, need a lot of mantainance and have a very low service life) and the fact that its licence of production belongs to Kharkov.
The Ukrainians are still producing the T-80 as the Oplot and, in fact, they just started delievers to Thailand.
From what I read and hear the tank is quite good.

As for the T-64 I'm not sure that Russians scrapped all their tanks or that those tanks are all in a preety bad shape.

The tanks in the photos are tanks that not only are well mantained (and believe me I saw my share of poorly mantained millitary hardware) but have been updated.
And I wouldn't be so sure that the Russian marines (I will check their ORBAT as soon as possible) won't use them.

In fact, the T-64 is a tank that could still find its use with a marine unit: it's smaller and lighter than a T-72, it has fording capabilities, it has enough firepower to give support to infantry ... and probably it is available in huge numbers and if you use it, you will not have to take better more reliable tanks from units that need them more.

Honestely, til now I haven't seen a piece of evidence that shows that those tanks aren't deploying with Russian troops.

It doesn't seem believable that Russia, who just augmented its millitary presence in the fronteer of the Ukrain and is trying to impose the federalization of that country would allow the Ukrainians to take their tanks to the mainland and even less that they would do the favor of transporting them.

Also don't think that the Russian troops photographed in the field near the tank, where just looking for "griby" and "klubniki" and just by accident, found a modernized T-64.

Lets keep bringing the info we can find.
All the best,

Hello guys,

George, interesting Info. André, you probably mean tridentmilitary.com? Try this for ukrainian patches:

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/Ukrainianmilitaria/Ukrainianpatches.html

But honestly I too beliebe now that those are ukrainian Tanks. Why? Just focus on the background were the Griffon is on, 3 white corners and the upper left in blue-yellow, exactly how ukraines Navy uses it. Look here:

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/new-photos21/udt15.jpg

Or here with different symbol

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/new-photos21/udt16.jpg

The Griffon remains my Mystery.
As for returning ukrainian Tanks - thats maybe some sort of de-escalation?

Anyway, I really appreciate this discussion.

Andreas

Hi Guys, don't have enough time to read all the comments and be a part of the discussion unfortunately.


However I found another interesting video by TV Zvezda


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ShAMkMeOAo

Hey!

Sven and Andreeas,

Thank you for the links you posted.

Andreeas, I still didn't check the links you send me, since I went straight for the vídeo. It may be the site I was looking for.

The vídeo was a real pleasure for the clear images of the T-64 tank. The best vídeo on this tank I've ever seen.

My Russian is still very poor, but as far as I understood, this are Ukrainian tanks, but I didn't understod if they are being delievered back to the Ukrainians or not.
I can have a translation of this vídeo by tomorrow night and I will post here more precise data.

I confess that I find weird that they may be returning the tanks, even more when all news indicate that Russia just augmented the number of troops in the Ukrainian border.
But hard evidence is hard evidence!

Andreas,

Thank you for the links.

The site I was refering isn't this.
It didn't offer anything for sale and it had the pictures of the diferente units shields on the right of the screen.

If I manage to find it again, I will post the link here.

Best,

André Silva, You Think Right is Wrong.

If you don't believe the tanks are Ukrainian that's Ok, but

STOP trying to discredit the facts to suit your on ideas.
May be it's time to move on from this.