Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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Forbidden Models?
Sgt_Pickle
Joined: March 01, 2013
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 103 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 02:20 AM UTC
Who cares about the swastika? I pay no attention when building something German WW2. It happened and so it needs to be portrayed accurately
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 03:21 AM UTC
A lot of people care about the swastika. I was in Berlin when Rudolf Hess died and to keep Spandau Prison from becoming a nazi shrine it was demolished almost immediately and the rubble buried on a U.S. Air Force base or dumped in the north sea to keep it out of the hands of the nazis. When he died there were demonstrations and near riots by neo-nazis claiming it was a conspiracy and assassination. There were and probably still are, rallies on the anniversary of his death. His grave became a site of neo-nazi rallies and pilgrimages and the town where he was buried was fed up with it and when the lease on his grave site was up they refused to renew it so Hess was dug up, cremated and buried at sea. Even his gravestone was destroyed to keep it out of the hands of neo-nazis.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 04:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I was wondering about trumpeter 1/350 the other day.
They make tons of 1/350 ship model every year, but never a subject of ww2 era IJN war-ships. IJN has a big following amongst modellers with its wide variety of interesting subjects, and I have hard time understanding why Trumpeter neglects this genre.
The only explanation I could think of was the fact that Trumpy is a Chinese company, and China didn't exactly had good relationship with Japan back then
That's because Japanese manufacturers have that covered and very rarely do anyone else's. So Trumpeter is filling the void with every other navy in the world while Tamiya, Aoshima, Fujimi at al. Do the IJN often multiple kits of the same ships.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 05:04 AM UTC
The Nazis ruined swastikas forever. Can't even have Finnish wartime items or Native American or Indian sunwheels.
As for red stars, that's the trademark of a major retailer in the US. Pretty innocuous when it's on the side of that symbol of rampant capitalism the shopping bag.
As for red stars, that's the trademark of a major retailer in the US. Pretty innocuous when it's on the side of that symbol of rampant capitalism the shopping bag.
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
Armorama: 2,005 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 08:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Nazis ruined swastikas forever. Can't even have Finnish wartime items or Native American or Indian sunwheels.
As for red stars, that's the trademark of a major retailer in the US. Pretty innocuous when it's on the side of that symbol of rampant capitalism the shopping bag.
Still in common use in Asia. There was once a Chinese restaurant near me that had a lot of wall panels with swastikas in their designs.
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 05:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
The german 86/86a StGB is a LOT older than "Political Correctness". And it does cover a lot more than the Nazis. EVERY organisation that was ruled illegeal by germanies highest court (and believe me you have to work REALLY hard to get that "honor") is covered. And when it comes to Nazis it covers not only the Swastica but also a number of unit symbols, greetings, songs etc.
Btw: That is also the reason the Red Star is not illegal - the UdSSR is not an organisation. The Kommunist Party in D was AND is illegal.
Given that the Allies sadly left a viable breeding population of Nazis intact in germany the 86/86a is a much needed and finally much used law these days (The record is over a hundered cases opened in one day on a Nazi concert recently)
So, how you explain existence of NPD in Germany even when Office of Protection of Constitution as well as other authorities recognised that its roots and background are neo-nazi. It sounds for me a bit weird while models cannot carry specific symbols.
We have very high hurdles in germany to label a political organisation or symbol "forbidden". And germanies highest court has ruled quite recently that the NPD does not jump those. Partially because it is riddled with BfVS (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz - Office for the Protection of the Constitution) informers
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 06:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted Text
The german 86/86a StGB is a LOT older than "Political Correctness". And it does cover a lot more than the Nazis. EVERY organisation that was ruled illegeal by germanies highest court (and believe me you have to work REALLY hard to get that "honor") is covered. And when it comes to Nazis it covers not only the Swastica but also a number of unit symbols, greetings, songs etc.
Btw: That is also the reason the Red Star is not illegal - the UdSSR is not an organisation. The Kommunist Party in D was AND is illegal.
Given that the Allies sadly left a viable breeding population of Nazis intact in germany the 86/86a is a much needed and finally much used law these days (The record is over a hundered cases opened in one day on a Nazi concert recently)
So, how you explain existence of NPD in Germany even when Office of Protection of Constitution as well as other authorities recognised that its roots and background are neo-nazi. It sounds for me a bit weird while models cannot carry specific symbols.
We have very high hurdles in germany to label a political organisation or symbol "forbidden". And germanies highest court has ruled quite recently that the NPD does not jump those. Partially because it is riddled with BfVS (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz - Office for the Protection of the Constitution) informers
Sometimes it can be clever to keep them in the open where it is possible to keep track of them and let them attract other NeoNazis. A forbidden organisation goes underground and then the tracking/surveillance becomes more difficult. If they are known and visible it will be easier to round them up later.
/Robin
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 06:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Who cares about the swastika? I pay no attention when building something German WW2. It happened and so it needs to be portrayed accurately
Why? What does it add to a model?
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 06:58 PM UTC
Definitely something fishy going on . . . I notice Tamiya lists their Sd Kfz 231, Hetzer, and Jagdtiger as "discontinued". By Imperial Writ, perhaps, to show disfavor with the Third Reich for abandoning Japan? What other possible explanation could there be?
OK, really now, has anyone found any evidence whatsoever that the "disappearance" of this Bronco kit is anything more than the normal catalog turnover that all companies of any size demonstrate?
KL
OK, really now, has anyone found any evidence whatsoever that the "disappearance" of this Bronco kit is anything more than the normal catalog turnover that all companies of any size demonstrate?
KL
TerancekW
Joined: November 13, 2014
KitMaker: 36 posts
Armorama: 36 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe Nazis ruined swastikas forever. Can't even have Finnish wartime items or Native American or Indian sunwheels.
As for red stars, that's the trademark of a major retailer in the US. Pretty innocuous when it's on the side of that symbol of rampant capitalism the shopping bag.
Still in common use in Asia. There was once a Chinese restaurant near me that had a lot of wall panels with swastikas in their designs.
The swastika is a symbol found in many cultures, with different meanings.
The left-facing style swastika in Asia is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, where it has been and remains a sacred symbol of spiritual principles in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism and of course nothing related to Nazis swastikas.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Definitely something fishy going on . . . I notice Tamiya lists their Sd Kfz 231, Hetzer, and Jagdtiger as "discontinued". By Imperial Writ, perhaps, to show disfavor with the Third Reich for abandoning Japan? What other possible explanation could there be?
OK, really now, has anyone found any evidence whatsoever that the "disappearance" of this Bronco kit is anything more than the normal catalog turnover that all companies of any size demonstrate?
KL
What disappearance?
All the supposedly "missing" kits are still in their online catalogue!
See one of my earlier posts where I compared the kit database at Scalemates with the current Bronco online catalogue. Every variant produced by Bronco is still in their catalogue. All of them are not on the same page though, Bronco has mixed in some 1/350 ships among the 1/35 armour.
IF anyone is still in doubt about the continued well being of these supposedly missing products please click through the following links:
Page 12 (4 kits), page 31 and 32 (one kit each)
http://www.cn-bronco.com/en/products.php?page=12
35082, 35083, 35086, 35091
http://www.cn-bronco.com/en/products.php?page=31
35088
http://www.cn-bronco.com/en/products.php?page=32
35094 which is the supposedly missing Type 63-2.
The catalogue is a bit confusing so if one gives up after seeing the first kit which is not 1/35 then it is easy to miss page 31 and 32. The search function on Bronco website makes it easy to find the "missing" kits.
Catalogue turnover is another thing, the first time I experienced it was when Tamiya pulled the British Quad gun tractor and the 25 pdr from their catalogue. For political reasons? Don't think so!! It came back after a few years ...
I missed out when Italeri re-released their RSO tractor (don't know how many re-re- it was ...) but I managed to get hold of a few re-re-releases (feels like I'm stuttering ..) later. This was before internet, e-bay, et.c.
/ Robin
Maybe it was page 13 that got the original poster derailed:
http://www.cn-bronco.com/en/products.php?page=13
USS San Diego in 1/350 followed by some old ships, a few submarines and ending with USS Coronado, Seawolf and an S-100 Schnellboot. Not a single piece of 1/35 armour, politically correct or in-correct, on the whole page.
SpeedyJ
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,617 posts
Armorama: 1,150 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:45 PM UTC
In Asia it never can be depicted as 'Swastika'. A 'Swastika' is X based and is a lent from ancient cultures by Mr. H.H. the limb dark side of the regime at that time.
A 'Swastika' is a wheel of fortune. In Bangkok I know many small India restaurant having the symbol as would do right to the deeper meaning of the symbol, the form of a big plus.
One should be more concerned about the 'what if modellers' to my opinion, referring to the good old times with their fantasies.
I believe that if you want to model a Messerschmidt or Heinkel, when you love those birds and do a great job on detailing, but have to black out details, it is not complete, not finished.
So what do IPMS members say about this? Has Germany different rules for that?
Kind regards,
Robert Jan
A 'Swastika' is a wheel of fortune. In Bangkok I know many small India restaurant having the symbol as would do right to the deeper meaning of the symbol, the form of a big plus.
One should be more concerned about the 'what if modellers' to my opinion, referring to the good old times with their fantasies.
I believe that if you want to model a Messerschmidt or Heinkel, when you love those birds and do a great job on detailing, but have to black out details, it is not complete, not finished.
So what do IPMS members say about this? Has Germany different rules for that?
Kind regards,
Robert Jan
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
What disappearance? All the supposedly "missing" kits are still in their online catalogue!"
"Disappearance" in quotes, meaning this so-called, this alleged, this imagined, disappearance.
KL
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 08:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWhat disappearance? All the supposedly "missing" kits are still in their online catalogue!"
"Disappearance" in quotes, meaning this so-called, this alleged, this imagined, disappearance.
KL
Yes, that's correct.
Maybe I should have added quotes around the word disappearance too ... for claritys sake. I was tempted to use a lot more uppercase letters ....
I let my temper gain control over my mind so I missed that detail
/ Robin
Bronco productions proudly presents:
http://www.cn-bronco.com/en/productsd.php?gid=&pid=1137
presumably in cooperation with PLA and/or the manufacturer of the 1:1 vehicle.
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
Armorama: 2,005 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 10:35 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The swastika is a symbol found in many cultures, with different meanings.
The left-facing style swastika in Asia is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, where it has been and remains a sacred symbol of spiritual principles in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism and of course nothing related to Nazis swastikas.
The Chinese restaurant I mentioned had swastikas facing in both directions.
Sgt_Pickle
Joined: March 01, 2013
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 103 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 12:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWho cares about the swastika? I pay no attention when building something German WW2. It happened and so it needs to be portrayed accurately
Why? What does it add to a model?
Historical accuracy. What does it detract? Hurt feelings?
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 12:31 AM UTC
Imagine trying to pitch an idea today for a sitcom about guys taking part in all kinds of laugh-a-minute hijinks in a German POW camp during WWII.....Nah.....wouldn't work.
jphillips
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
Armorama: 789 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 12:42 AM UTC
Accurately depicting historical vehicles and soldiers isn't the same thing as celebrating the ideology they served. If I want to build a vehicle of the Nazi Reich, the Forces Armees Rwandaises genocidaires or ISIS I have to mark it with the appropriate insignia, or it can't be identified. I'm not politically ignorant or indifferent - far from it - but my political views and my hobby have nothing to do with each other. If I build a vehicle of the "bad guys" in some conflict, I take as much care in building, painting, detailing and marking it as I would a vehicle of my own country's armed forces.
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 12:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Imagine trying to pitch an idea today for a sitcom about guys taking part in all kinds of laugh-a-minute hijinks in a German POW camp during WWII.....Nah.....wouldn't work.
Actually the show is well liked in germany since (partially at the insistence of Werner Klemperer aka Colonel Kling) the germans always where the bumbling loosers. Translation into german is decend and funny, US original is slightly better. Most likely runs somewhere in german TV right now (Ein Käfig voller Helden - A cage full of heros is the german title)
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 12:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextWho cares about the swastika? I pay no attention when building something German WW2. It happened and so it needs to be portrayed accurately
Why? What does it add to a model?
Historical accuracy. What does it detract? Hurt feelings?
If something needs illegal symbols linked to a bunch of pigs to be accurate - it is best not build.
Sgt_Pickle
Joined: March 01, 2013
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 103 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 12:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextWho cares about the swastika? I pay no attention when building something German WW2. It happened and so it needs to be portrayed accurately
Why? What does it add to a model?
Historical accuracy. What does it detract? Hurt feelings?
If something needs illegal symbols linked to a bunch of pigs to be accurate - it is best not build.
Illegal in a nanny state like Germany
jphillips
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
Armorama: 789 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 01:05 AM UTC
Was it illegal to build model kits of aircraft marked with the Vytis cross, before your country regained its independence?
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 01:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextWho cares about the swastika? I pay no attention when building something German WW2. It happened and so it needs to be portrayed accurately
Why? What does it add to a model?
Historical accuracy. What does it detract? Hurt feelings?
If something needs illegal symbols linked to a bunch of pigs to be accurate - it is best not build.
Illegal in a nanny state like Germany
Well, maybe Germany has very very good reasons to be restrictive with these symbols.
I don't know what Lithuania feels about the Hammer and Sickle flag nowadays ....
Sgt_Pickle
Joined: March 01, 2013
KitMaker: 105 posts
Armorama: 103 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 01:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Was it illegal to build model kits of aircraft marked with the Vytis cross, before your country regained its independence?
Yes
jphillips
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
Armorama: 789 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 01:11 AM UTC
The Soviets probably liked the Latvian air force emblem even less than yours!
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