Stars, squares, swastikas, hammers, crosses, smiley faces, lets ban them all! Is that really the answer?
I think its best for people to see them so they never forget what they stood for.
The United States is now in the process of removing all of the statues of confederate soldiers that fought in our civil war at the same time we have currency in circulation adorned with ex-presidents who used to own slaves. That's the type of lunacy we live with.
Outlawing drawn symbols is not the answer, its more like a cover up.
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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Axis23
Joined: July 05, 2006
KitMaker: 112 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 02:40 AM UTC
VintageRPM
Joined: November 28, 2010
KitMaker: 300 posts
Armorama: 207 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 02:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextWho cares about the swastika? I pay no attention when building something German WW2. It happened and so it needs to be portrayed accurately
Why? What does it add to a model?
Historical accuracy. What does it detract? Hurt feelings?
If something needs illegal symbols linked to a bunch of pigs to be accurate - it is best not build.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."- George Santayana
Its one thing to fly a Nazi flag over your home, its another to build a replica for historical reasons, whether in a museum or a private collection.
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 03:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."- George Santayana
Its one thing to fly a Nazi flag over your home, its another to build a replica for historical reasons, whether in a museum or a private collection.
That's the ticket.
TerancekW
Joined: November 13, 2014
KitMaker: 36 posts
Armorama: 36 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 06:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe swastika is a symbol found in many cultures, with different meanings.
The left-facing style swastika in Asia is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, where it has been and remains a sacred symbol of spiritual principles in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism and of course nothing related to Nazis swastikas.
The Chinese restaurant I mentioned had swastikas facing in both directions.
The clockwise symbol is symbolizing surya (sun) and prosperity, while the counterclockwise symbol is symbolizing night or tantric aspects of Kali........ and of course, it is again nothing related to Nazis swastikas.
Jupiterblitz
Joined: December 30, 2007
KitMaker: 885 posts
Armorama: 796 posts
KitMaker: 885 posts
Armorama: 796 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 07:35 AM UTC
I by myself don't build any Waffen-SS vehicles, in particular those of the "Leibstandarte".
Because I don't see any necessities to provide any historical depictions of the Waffen-SS militaria.
"Historical reasons" are often empty excuses (but sound good).
Because I don't see any necessities to provide any historical depictions of the Waffen-SS militaria.
"Historical reasons" are often empty excuses (but sound good).
Mrclark7
Joined: June 04, 2017
KitMaker: 503 posts
Armorama: 477 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 09:18 AM UTC
Im not even going to go further into this because some are just set it thought.
http://www.businessinsider.com/words-china-banned-from-search-engines-after-tiananmen-square-2014-6
http://www.businessinsider.com/words-china-banned-from-search-engines-after-tiananmen-square-2014-6
Mrclark7
Joined: June 04, 2017
KitMaker: 503 posts
Armorama: 477 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 09:21 AM UTC
again 
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 10:22 AM UTC
I try to avoid doing SS pieces myself but that's my choice. I know so many others who build nothing else but SS so I'd like to recognize the contribution of the other 85% of the Wehrmacht. 
I could go into the entire history of 19th century mystics co-opting Eastern symbols for their made up occult ramblings that culminated with Thule society and Nazism and swastikas and somehow conflating Prehistoric Asian Indian warrior invaders with blonde, blue eyed Teutons but it's all so silly. (Aryans)
Can't even use runic symbols without someone saying you're a neo-nazi.
And to get really crazy look up P.G.T. Beauregard and the origin of the Confederate battle flag as the cross of St. Andrew to symbolize the Scotch-Irish heritage of much of the Confederate South. I went to one reenactment where the only US flag was being waved by an Aussie and another where an African American got angry about a Scottish flag because it looked too much like a Confederate Battle Flag.
There was a gentleman who was a naval history buff who would fly the old Tsarist Naval ensign (cross of St. Andrew again) or the Imperial German ensign so people would come and complain about confederate or nazi flags so he could calmly disabuse them of that notion with a history lesson.
I could go into the entire history of 19th century mystics co-opting Eastern symbols for their made up occult ramblings that culminated with Thule society and Nazism and swastikas and somehow conflating Prehistoric Asian Indian warrior invaders with blonde, blue eyed Teutons but it's all so silly. (Aryans)
Can't even use runic symbols without someone saying you're a neo-nazi.
And to get really crazy look up P.G.T. Beauregard and the origin of the Confederate battle flag as the cross of St. Andrew to symbolize the Scotch-Irish heritage of much of the Confederate South. I went to one reenactment where the only US flag was being waved by an Aussie and another where an African American got angry about a Scottish flag because it looked too much like a Confederate Battle Flag.
There was a gentleman who was a naval history buff who would fly the old Tsarist Naval ensign (cross of St. Andrew again) or the Imperial German ensign so people would come and complain about confederate or nazi flags so he could calmly disabuse them of that notion with a history lesson.
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 12:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I by myself don't build any Waffen-SS vehicles, in particular those of the "Leibstandarte".
Because I don't see any necessities to provide any historical depictions of the Waffen-SS militaria.
"Historical reasons" are often empty excuses (but sound good).
I was stationed at the old Lichterfelde Kaserne which was the Leibstandarte headquarters. I paraded and did PT on the same grounds the LSSAH did. Not glorifying anything just saying.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/lichterfelde.htm
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
Armorama: 2,005 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 01:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I by myself don't build any Waffen-SS vehicles, in particular those of the "Leibstandarte".
Because I don't see any necessities to provide any historical depictions of the Waffen-SS militaria.
"Historical reasons" are often empty excuses (but sound good).
Including this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_Grass
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 02:20 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI by myself don't build any Waffen-SS vehicles, in particular those of the "Leibstandarte".
Because I don't see any necessities to provide any historical depictions of the Waffen-SS militaria.
"Historical reasons" are often empty excuses (but sound good).
Including this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_Grass
????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Building and painting a figure of a teenager in SS-uniform?
My grandfather was a socialist and worked in a shipyard cutting steel for German submarines. He was sent to the eastern front but got called back before he got half way there because A.H. had decided that Germany needed more U-boats after all. The U-boat war saved the life of my grandfather.
There was a war going on, men (old, young, teenagers) got called in to military service, to go out in a war and fight for Adolf Hitler. You could refuse of course, it would save you the trouble of figuring out what to have for dinner the next day, or any day for the rest of your very very short life. Go to war or get a bullet in the neck.
For those with a few extra brain cells it was a matter of survival.
/ Robin
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 02:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextI by myself don't build any Waffen-SS vehicles, in particular those of the "Leibstandarte".
Because I don't see any necessities to provide any historical depictions of the Waffen-SS militaria.
"Historical reasons" are often empty excuses (but sound good).
Including this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_Grass
????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Building and painting a figure of a teenager in SS-uniform?
My grandfather was a socialist and worked in a shipyard cutting steel for German submarines. He was sent to the eastern front but got called back before he got half way there because A.H. had decided that Germany needed more U-boats after all. The U-boat war saved the life of my grandfather.
There was a war going on, men (old, young, teenagers) got called in to military service, to go out in a war and fight for Adolf Hitler. You could refuse of course, it would save you the trouble of figuring out what to have for dinner the next day, or any day for the rest of your very very short life. Go to war or get a bullet in the neck.
For those with a few extra brain cells it was a matter of survival.
/ Robin
I agree. I met an SS veteran in college. He was a Pole who was drafted because of his extensive knowledge of Eastern European language. He spent three years on the Russian front as a translator. He was never issued ammunition or a firing pin for his pistol.
If he had ever tried to leave he'd be dead. If the Nazis didn't shoot him as a deserter, the Russians would shoot him as SS.
Klaus-Adler
Campaigns Administrator
Joined: June 08, 2015
KitMaker: 1,505 posts
Armorama: 840 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 03:19 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Scarred, I read that thread and immediately went to eBay. I bought the last two that I could find on there.
I had to fight like hell with archer transfers but I managed to get two sets of daesh/isis flags but I have them in for my future syrian diorama
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 05:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextWho cares about the swastika? I pay no attention when building something German WW2. It happened and so it needs to be portrayed accurately
Why? What does it add to a model?
Historical accuracy. What does it detract? Hurt feelings?
If something needs illegal symbols linked to a bunch of pigs to be accurate - it is best not build.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."- George Santayana
Its one thing to fly a Nazi flag over your home, its another to build a replica for historical reasons, whether in a museum or a private collection.
A proper museum/public collection in germany is allowed to use the symbols as are films where it is part of a correct historical portrait and can not be avoided (See Operation Walküre for a recent movie). But the rules are very narrow. If you can show something without it (say a Tiger in Wehrmacht instead of pig squad colors/insignia) you must do so.
And considering that recently a "right wing concert" in germany resulted in over 100 criminal charges based on 86a - I like those strict rules and interpretations.
====================
As for myself - I have stopped building WW2 german subjects (okay, dead germans/destroyed tanks are okay) AND would not get near some german modelling clubs because some german modellers are a bit "tooo conservative" to put it politely.
I AM planning to build a Tiger (perferable an egg style one) with pig squad crew as soon as I can find out where to get lower halfs with high heels and suspenders for the crew. And pink colors. Definitly pink colors for the tank.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 06:32 PM UTC
Ah, a pink Tiger
Bronco 35076
Are their legs marching in the correct way ?
/ Robin
Bronco 35076
Are their legs marching in the correct way ?
/ Robin
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 07:45 PM UTC
The second Bronco kit looks really useable Maybe together with Mengs "Egg Tank"...
Maybe together with Mengs "Egg Tank"...long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
Armorama: 2,005 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 07:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I AM planning to build a Tiger (perferable an egg style one) with pig squad crew as soon as I can find out where to get lower halfs with high heels and suspenders for the crew. And pink colors. Definitly pink colors for the tank.
If you do any vehicles for the DAK, some of them probably really did get painted pink.
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 08:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI AM planning to build a Tiger (perferable an egg style one) with pig squad crew as soon as I can find out where to get lower halfs with high heels and suspenders for the crew. And pink colors. Definitly pink colors for the tank.
If you do any vehicles for the DAK, some of them probably really did get painted pink.
No,it has the palm tree and swastika symbol
Mrclark7
Joined: June 04, 2017
KitMaker: 503 posts
Armorama: 477 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 - 10:25 PM UTC
If only there was a way to research it and understand it. hmmmmm
50 examples of events leading to how you ban the number 63,63+1,six three,six four, six 3,6 four,June 3,June 4 and "tank".
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2012/06/tiananmen-square-then-and-now/100311/
50 examples of events leading to how you ban the number 63,63+1,six three,six four, six 3,6 four,June 3,June 4 and "tank".
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2012/06/tiananmen-square-then-and-now/100311/
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
Armorama: 2,005 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 12:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As for myself - I have stopped building WW2 german subjects (okay, dead germans/destroyed tanks are okay) AND would not get near some german modelling clubs because some german modellers are a bit "tooo conservative" to put it politely.
I AM planning to build a Tiger (perferable an egg style one) with pig squad crew as soon as I can find out where to get lower halfs with high heels and suspenders for the crew. And pink colors. Definitly pink colors for the tank.
Are these clubs full of former East Germans?
jphillips
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
Armorama: 789 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 12:23 AM UTC
Are these clubs full of former East Germans?[/quote]
Maybe they are! Far-right sentiment is said to be strongest over there. But after decades of hearing their government brand anything rightwing as "fascist", many former East Germans may still believe conservatism and fascism are the same thing.
Maybe they are! Far-right sentiment is said to be strongest over there. But after decades of hearing their government brand anything rightwing as "fascist", many former East Germans may still believe conservatism and fascism are the same thing.
VintageRPM
Joined: November 28, 2010
KitMaker: 300 posts
Armorama: 207 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 12:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As for myself - I have stopped building WW2 german subjects (okay, dead germans/destroyed tanks are okay) AND would not get near some german modelling clubs because some german modellers are a bit "tooo conservative" to put it politely.
I AM planning to build a Tiger (perferable an egg style one) with pig squad crew as soon as I can find out where to get lower halfs with high heels and suspenders for the crew. And pink colors. Definitly pink colors for the tank.
The modelers I've never understood are the ones who only build WWII German subjects. They will not build WWII British, French, or American vehicles unless they are captured vehicles used by the Germans that have had German markings added.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 01:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
As for myself - I have stopped building WW2 german subjects (okay, dead germans/destroyed tanks are okay) AND would not get near some german modelling clubs because some german modellers are a bit "tooo conservative" to put it politely.
I AM planning to build a Tiger (perferable an egg style one) with pig squad crew as soon as I can find out where to get lower halfs with high heels and suspenders for the crew. And pink colors. Definitly pink colors for the tank.
The modelers I've never understood are the ones who only build WWII German subjects. They will not build WWII British, French, or American vehicles unless they are captured vehicles used by the Germans that have had German markings added.
Many of our fellow humans have a fascination for the bad/evil/threatening/dangerous. Why do bad news and scandals sell a lot more newspapers than good news?
/ Robin
Vicious
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 02:31 AM UTC
Even in Italy there is a law very similar to the German one, "Apology to Fascism" just as it often happens in Italy laws exist but are not applied or applied only occasionally
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 - 02:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAre these clubs full of former East Germans?
Maybe they are! Far-right sentiment is said to be strongest over there. But after decades of hearing their government brand anything rightwing as "fascist", many former East Germans may still believe conservatism and fascism are the same thing.
I live on the western border of germany (NRW, near Duisburg), basically thirty minutes to the Netherlands. While Nazis SEEM to be more common in the east remember that
+ The NPD has it's roots in WEST germany prior to 1990
+ The AfD (the bigger of the two right wing parties) managed 7.3 percent of the votes in the Mai 2017 elections in NRW (where I live)
+ Currently the AfD is present in 13 of 16 german states (only 5 are "in the east" and one of those is a city state - Berlin)
+ The three it is not present had their elections (they happen all 4-5 years) prior to the AfDs "rise in popularity"
So despite the joke that the "Anti-Faschist protection wall" (as the GDR called it) worked perfectly to protect the BRG the Nazis are not a "purely" east german problem. Nor where the guys in the club from the east (the local dialects are quite distinct)
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